‍

All season, we’ve rooted ourselves in community. Inspired by vast, underground webs of mycellium we’ve shared ways to create local networks of support, information, and resilience. We’ve talked about how we can use our collective power to prep for climate disasters, protect the water, and use our dollars to resist consumption and combat greenwashing.

‍

On this episode, we're ending the season by reminding ourselves that we’re part of nature and that we can look to our fellow animals, as well as plants and fungi, at any time for lessons in community, resilience, and patience.

‍

Episode Credits

‍

• Listener contributions: Amber Sit, Ashley Walker, Grace Hebert, Justina, Leena Joshi, Kasia Hertz
• Editing and engineering: Evan Goodchild‍
• Hosting and production: Katelan Cunningham

‍

Episode transcript

‍

Katelan (00:00):

Welcome back to Second Nature. This is a podcast from Commons. If Mother Nature had a finance app, commons would be the one. Every day people use the Commons app to track their spending and find opportunities to become more mindful with their money. And on this show, we talk to people about how they're living sustainably in an unsustainable world.

Katelan (00:27):

Throughout the season of the show, we have been rooting ourselves in community inspired by vast underground webs of mycelium. We've shared ways to create local networks of support, information, and resilience. We've talked about how we can use our collective power to prepare for climate disasters, protect the water, use our dollars to resist consumption and combat greenwashing. And today we wanted to end the season by reminding ourselves that we're part of nature and we can look to our fellow animals as well as plants and fungi at any time. For teachings on community, for lessons in resilience, and for reminders of patience, I'm your host, Caitlyn Cunningham, and today on the show we're gonna hear the most profound lessons that you've learned from nature and how we can apply them in our daily lives. Plus, we have the fantastic honor to hear from one of our greatest teachers, scientist, author, and Professor Robin Wall, Kimer, you ready?

Katelan (01:41):

In nature, the other living things, animals, plants, fungi. They know, however instinctively that they're not living in isolation. No matter how unreachable a wasp makes its nest or how spiky a holly bush makes its leaves or how impenetrable a beaver makes its dam, their shelter, food and water exist through the survival of others. And so their actions are inherently reciprocal, which is a big aspect of what us humans are missing. Much of humanity these days attempts to isolate and rise above the natural world, which is honestly a fool's errand because even if you attempt to shut nature out, you're always letting it back in. For example, we eat food grown from the land. We buy clothes made from materials in nature, and we get our water from the rain. Those essential decisions have tremendous ripple effects.

Katelan (02:41):

Let's look at your weekly veggies. If you buy those from a local farm instead of a big agriculture retailer, you are supporting local biodiversity and soil conservation, which in turn protects us from flooding and makes our food supply more resilient. When we decide to buy a new shirt made from organically grown cotton instead of one made of polyester, we are deciding to give our money to farmers instead of the fossil fuel industry, which in turn keeps pollutants out of the air. And when we wash that cotton shirt, we're keeping microplastics out of the water supply so that we're not drinking them. When we turn on our taps, our decisions, our purchases, our actions all have some effect positive, negative, or neutral on the environment that we're a part of. And in turn ourselves we can eat, drink, and shelter ourselves because of the environment. And that lesson, thinking of ourselves as a small piece of a whole is just one of many.

Ashley (03:44):

There are so many profound lessons that I've learned from nature. So much of our daily lives are spent inside under fluorescent lights or behind screens and surrounded by concrete. We live in a society built mostly around convenience and productivity, but often at the cost of connection. And that's not just with others, but with ourselves as well. But nature has a way of removing all of that noise. Nature strips away, distractions and invites stillness.

Amber (04:20):

Nature doesn't rush. It goes with the flow. It always exists in the now,

Kasia (04:26):

And it's not our idea of time, it's the time of nature and it'll balance itself. Always.

Ashley (04:36):

You can't rush a sunrise or force a seed to sprout before it's ready. Things tend to evolve slowly but purposefully.

Justina (04:47):

I recently moved to a coastal town, so I swim any chance I get.

Justina (04:54):

Whenever I'm swimming I, I try to stay aware of the waves 'cause it's no joke to get hit by one. I definitely struggle at first, but I get my rhythm as the waves come and go. And I feel like I've taken that with me out of the water and just in life in general because there's a lot of things out of my control. It could be a bad day at work or a whole day power outage. When I'm at home and I'm just starting to find my rhythm and how I react and just taking it one moment at a time, I always tell myself like, you know, it comes in waves, it comes in waves, so the ups and downs and you just have to ride out the wave <laugh>.

Ashley (05:40):

The second lesson is about resilience and adaptation. When I've stood in a desert or a rainforest, I've realized how life finds a way to thrive, even in the harshest of conditions. Whenever I'm faced with uncertainty, I think of the way ecosystems bend without breaking and adjust, without losing their essence.

Kasia (06:07):

I devoted my whole body and my senses and my perception to understand how the forest works, how it operates. I get to know it pretty well. I almost never left it for the seven years. Right now, the forest already after seven years is completely revived. Like the places that were logged and clear cutted are growing completely new types of forests. And you can see that the forest is finding solutions.

Amber (06:39):

Nature has taught me a lot about life and how to live. It doesn't hold and it also gives generously to maintain a balance dynamically. For example, animals forage only when they need food for nourishment and they accept death when it comes, and death is part of life. This teaches me to take only what I need and to live with intention to become more thoughtful of my own reactions and their influence on the environment and other people.

Kasia (07:12):

What was pretty clear to me after some time was that the forest, it's build off smaller hubs or clusters that share information and resources. This is the perfect example of democracy actually, and that this hubs or clusters are interconnected and they help each other grow.

Grace (07:35):

Despite what you see in nature. Documentaries, there's more cooperation in community than you think in nature. Lichen is a combination of algae and fungus working together. Tree stumps have been found to still be alive because their neighboring trees are still giving them nutrients. I see squirrels sound an alarm, call and warn others of predators despite calling attention to themselves, putting themselves in danger in my own backyard. I often see the justification that capitalism is for realist and it makes sense because the world is a competitive predator prey system. But that isn't even true in nature despite what hustles culture tells us. It's amazing how humans come together to volunteer and share resources and money all the time.

Katelan (08:23):

How can we hold onto these lessons? These teachings offered so generously from our own backyards. Many folks in our community, including myself, have found ourselves coming back to Robin Waller's books again and again for this very reason. Robin is a scientist, author and professor. You may have read her book, braiding Sweetgrass or more recently, the Service Berry. If you haven't, after this episode run, don't walk to your local library bookstore or Libby app and be ready to have your whole perspective shifted. Robin has a way of connecting science, botany and poetry, honestly, in a way that rerout us into the natural world. Hi Robin. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Robin (09:13):

Glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Katelan (09:16):

It is such an honor to have you. Your work has truly changed my perception and my relationship with the natural world, and I'm sure it has for so many of our listeners. So we feel so lucky to have you. First of all, I just realized that braiding sweetgrass came out over 10 years ago. Yeah. Which is wild <laugh>. It feels still so prevalent, at least in my memory. And one of the lines that's really stuck with me is you said a great longing is upon us to live again in a world made of gifts. And I feel like that longing has only grown stronger, at least for me over the years, which is why the timing of your latest book, the service barrier feels so necessary. I wondered if you have felt that longing growing stronger, and if you could share a little bit about how the gift economy is one of nature's important lessons that we can learn from.

Robin (10:07):

Yeah. This is such an important question to begin. Yes. I have just felt this acceleration in longing, not only acceleration, but deepening as the losses of land, of values of biodiversity pile up around us. I think people are, are feeling this great homesickness for the world that we want to live in. And that longing, I think has real motive force. It's an important emotion, isn't it? Yeah. Because it can galvanize us to do the work. Longings suggests to me anyway, that what we want is just within reach. Hmm. And that proximity, I think is empowering to know that we could do this if we all bend our energies toward that work. And the gift economy is one of the ways that we can act on that longing. If we want to, I'd like to couple longing and be longing because that's one of the things we long for, is to belong to the world, to belong to a community of of kinfolk with whom we are in Right.

Robin (11:21):

Relation. And so the gift economy, which is a call from the natural world, the natural world works with negative feedback loops as ecosystem scientists would say, which is reciprocity. That in return for everything which is taken, it must be replenished. It's the circular economy as we as we know so well. Right. But in a gift economy, the currency of this economy that leads to wellbeing is not money, it's relationship, it's gratitude, it's a kind of shared responsibility. And that's how the natural world works. You know, in the service bear, we talk about the gift economy of, of a tree, for example, where that tree does not hoard what it has. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It shares. And I think we are longing to live in an economy where we are active participants in giving what we have. That it isn't just about or ever primarily about accumulation, but about sharing and, and keeping the gift in motion. So the gift economy of nature is an invitation to address this longing that you're identifying as a way to belong. You belong when you're in reciprocity with those around you, when you've earned their respect and their gratitude.

Katelan (12:51):

Yeah. When we think about belonging, I think we often default humans. We default to, we belong to a city or a country or maybe a faith or a political party. But it's not very often, maybe unless people have read your books, that we think about how we belong in the natural world and our relationship with the natural world. And I wondered if you have any advice on how we can start to reconcile that disconnect and start to realize and really ground in the fact that we are in a relationship with the land, despite the fact that we're living in buildings and all the kinds of things that are sort of blocking that, that idea for us.

Robin (13:29):

Yeah. When I think about my most, uh, immediate sense of belonging is belonging to the land. I consider myself a citizen of Maple Nation. This is where I belong, and how do I know that? And how might somebody who doesn't feel like they belong to land in that way start to cultivate that sense of belonging? And to me, it's all about paying attention and who we pay attention to in the examples you give, we pay attention to members of our own species as well. We should to our environment, which is largely a built environment. But what if we reclaim our attention from the things that Western commerce wants us to pay attention to, uh, like scarcity, like consumerism, like our digital devices, you know, they've hijacked our attention, quite honestly. Um, that's probably too kind a word. They have stolen our attention. Absolutely. So it is an act of resistance to reclaim your own attention, to give it to those who are really contributing to your wellbeing.

Robin (14:38):

So to start to pay attention to the plants around you, to the birds around you. And sometimes people disparage their, their environments and say, well, there's no, there's no nature here. There's Right, there's no one to pay attention to. Nonsense. Um, we are all embedded in nature. We are nature. So giving our attention to the way that we are physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally intertwined with the living world is the way home. I think, you know, I have a hard time spending time in cities, quite honestly. Yeah. And one of the things that I do to ground myself there, because I feel so disconnected, and I think that anyone, wherever you are on the planet can practice this, this simple exercise of paying attention to the source of your breath, you know, to breathe in and say that, oh my gosh, I may not see a forest right here, but the breath that has just animated me comes from trees, it comes from prairies, it comes from wetlands. And you are existentially connected through the breath. And then when we think about how it's reciprocity that helps us belong when we breathe out, our exhalation is what those green beings need. Yeah. So there, there it is in this beautiful, just poetry of mindful breathing, you know, that you belong, it changes you. It's a gateway, I think, into paying attention to what really helps us live.

Katelan (16:20):

Truly. I feel like that's one of the, the biggest lessons I get from gardening is that paying attention is kind of the, the base. You can't, yeah. You can't have a successful garden if you're not paying attention, which I think is something that Right. People don't talk about enough. <laugh>. I had to learn that on my own.

Robin (16:35):

Agreed. Agreed.

Katelan (16:36):

It actually reminds me quite often, I come back to this section of braiding sweetgrass where you sort of trace what you call the thread of life from an object in your house, whether it's your food or your furniture, back to the sort of its natural origin. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that process of rerouting and sort of reconnecting with the things around us and how they're from the natural world.

Robin (16:59):

Yeah. That feels like a really important process is to be remembering that, you know, well, let's back up. When you're in the garden, it's very clear that that carrot that you're eating came from the earth and it invites you to reciprocity to care for that garden patch, all those things. But when we're buying something at the store, we don't have that immediacy to know that this is a gift from the earth. And so I really value that process of saying, where did this come from? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because everything used to be alive. And what are those lives? Where are the stories of those lives? And it's impractical, of course, to do that for everything, but when you do it for anything, it wakes you up to that thread of life. And therefore the responsibility Right. That we have to life when we can see in, you know, my sheet of paper here when I can see, oh, right, these are trees whose bodies I am consuming right now, that makes me feel very accountable to those lives. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think it's a really worthwhile practice, which kind of unites the material and the spiritual at the same time and helps invite us into a more honorable relationship with how we consume.

Katelan (18:24):

One thing that's helpful for me too is, um, in your books you refer to like you just did the tree as a who rather than an it. Mm-hmm. And that is really powerful for me. So as a writer to remember that too, we talked a little bit about gardening as a species. It feels like we're falling very short in our reciprocal, um, relationship with nature. And so I wanted to bring this question from Gabrielle in Chicago who wants to take action, and she asked, what can I do to help rewild and support biodiversity and ecosystem restoration?

Robin (18:57):

Oh, I love this question, Gabrielle, thank you. Thank you. <laugh>, you are really posing this wonderful question of direct reciprocity with the land and the idea of restoration feels to me like we're doing dishes in Mother Earth's kitchen, you know? Mm. <laugh> we, we have had the feast, we have consumed, and now it's time that we clean up and restoration ecology, whether it be a small rewilding of a, of, of a plot in your yard, or whether it's that ecosystem and landscape level scale is a way that humans, gifts of science, design, engineering, shovels, care for seeds, um, art that invites people to do this work. All of these gifts can come together in that act of planting. And, you know, this particular call, this kind of longing to clean up after ourselves, to give back to the land, is something that a group of co-conspirators and I are, are, are working on in a movement called plant, baby Plant. This is in direct counter narrative to the mantra of drill baby. Drill of

Katelan (20:15):

Yes. Yeah.

Robin (20:16):

You know, let's take, let's take and, you know, destroy as we go, adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere at every, every moment. Well, plants know what to do with carbon dioxide. And so plant, baby plant is an invitation to people like Gabrielle who already know this is the pathway and to folks who don't yet that yeah, we can ally ourselves with plants to help them sequester carbon. We can ally ourselves with plants to help magnify biodiversity by planting pollinator gardens, for example, and those plants who are feeding the soil and building the soil. So I think this is one of our primary tools that we have as citizens have available to us, is to put our hands in the soil on behalf of plants mm-hmm <affirmative>. Really helping them do this work of, of earth healing.

Katelan (21:15):

Yeah. And that's in whatever size patch parkway, <laugh> garden that you have, right?

Robin (21:21):

It is, it is, you know. Yeah. In fact, even things as small as things like native plants, pollinator plants on a balcony in an urban setting provide forage for pollinators in any one of those by themselves is, is small. But what if there's lots of them? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You suddenly have an urban ecosystem, um, of connectivity. And that's one of the reasons these small actions really add up, is it creates connectivity for pollinators to move for birds, to have safe places, et cetera. So if you magnify that from, you know, a little fire escape garden to a community garden, to insisting that we stop surrounding our built environment with lawns that emit carbon dioxide. Right. We replace them with a, with a wildflower meadow that actually sequesters carbon and creates habitat at the same time. These are very straightforward, very doable things we simply have to gather together in solidarity and say, we will do this. Mm-hmm. And that's mm-hmm. What that baby plant is, is all about, is an invitation toolkits community to, to help us all participate in that way.

Katelan (22:45):

In our economy and in our culture in many ways, we're always championing this newness. And in your books, you always remind us so often of the ancient wisdom of the land and the people who have cared for it over time. We got this question from Anana McCarty in Washington state mm-hmm <affirmative>. Who asked, why are tribal leaders and native peoples consistently left out of the climate conversation? Why are scientists searching for answers and methods that we as indigenous peoples have known for thousands of years?

Robin (23:16):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's a wonderful question, and there feel like two parts of this. Let's start with the question of why are native peoples left out the power differential, right. History of colonialism. We, we know that story, but what I also wanna say is that in fact, native people are leading sustainability revolutions with all kinds of remarkable kinds of adaptive strategies and resilience in partnership with, with our homelands. So in the political process, in the economic process, yes. Uh, indigenous peoples are often marginalized, but there is this rising power and leadership in indigenous communities that in fact are creating the models that we need, models that are based on, to the second part of your question, traditional ecological knowledge, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. This ancient knowledge of how to care for land and the fact that we need to be active participants in caring for land. Again, that we're not just takers of the so-called natural resources, but that we are gift givers as well.

Robin (24:28):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, there's so many examples in things like indigenous polyculture, indigenous gardening that is good for land and good for people and good for the plants all at the same time. We have so much to learn there, the really well known examples of the way that native peoples have, um, historically and are currently leading the way in contemporary times with the application of cultural burning and prescribe fire to magnify biodiversity to heal forests and, and, and grasslands. So there are so many examples of sophisticated indigenous scientific technologies in a way Yeah. Land technologies that, that we need to be paying much more attention to. And to some extent, governments have come to acknowledge that you look at United Nations Convention on biodiversity during the prior administration, there was a directive to all federal land management agencies that they must elevate indigenous knowledge in all of their land management, science and research. So this is possible, um, this is possible, and we simply have to return to that well-balanced, respectful way of being

Katelan (25:53):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we can look for that even if the government isn't championing that effort as well. Yep. It becomes a little bit harder in some ways. Right. You have to look for it, but I don't think you have to probably look that hard. So

Robin (26:05):

I love how you're framing that and you know, there's that notion of if our leaders so-called leaders won't lead, then we will.

Katelan (26:13):

Exactly. Yeah. I wanted to end on, we know that the natural world is very resilient and looking through the questions from our community, this theme kept coming up of people kind of being very burnt out in their sustainability efforts and their climate efforts, their feeling quite hopeless. So I wondered if you have any examples of resilience and perseverance in nature that we can kind of hold onto or look to for teaching?

Robin (26:41):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. What an important invitation to all of us, right? To look to the natural world, not only for the the material gifts, but for the teachings about how we do this. And there's so many examples, but the one that would turn to, which seems really appropriate in these moments is a lot of my early research career was spent on wounded landscapes, mine tailings on toxic landscapes. Wow. Where the ways of homo industrialists have ruined the land, created a wasteland, and yet there are plants there who are saying, Hmm, we have a responsibility here. We have a healing responsibility and we're going to do this. And on mine tailings, for example, hostile, toxic, no soil. And yet there are plants that are coming up through that. The message of resilience is not only that the plants not only can do this, they are doing this and we need to ally ourselves to help them.

Robin (27:55):

But what you notice is that on a mine tailing, the regeneration doesn't happen over the whole thing. It's local. Mm. A tree seedling starts and then there's just a tiny bit more shade. So there's moss under the tree, and when there's moss under that little seedling, then a little grass can't come. So it happens in nodes, it happens in little tiny islands of healing. And pretty soon those islands all coalesce and you have, uh, the beginnings of a restored landscape. And that's where I go to in my times of despairs is, Hey, we can't do this alone. We have to create together these little islands of healing. Then it all adds up when we partner with each other and when we partner with the land.

Katelan (28:47):

Yeah. And that's such a beautiful reminder that you don't have to, I live in Los Angeles, I don't need to start with Los Angeles. I can start with my block. I can start with, you know what I mean? Like that, that you can start with just a few people and then grow and grow and grow.

Robin (29:02):

Absolutely.

Katelan (29:02):

Thank you so, so much for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with us. I really, really appreciate it.

Robin (29:08):

Thanks for inviting me. Bye.

Katelan (29:20):

Our very existence relies on the ways that we consume care for and collaborate with the natural world. I hope you'll keep these lessons with you when you're feeling hopeful or distraught, interconnected or lost. And when you need to take a deep breath and remember that breath is courtesy of the trees. Thank you so, so much for listening to this episode and for listening to our show.

Katelan (29:47):

We know that there are lots of great podcasts out there, and the fact that you choose to have ours on your playlist does not go unnoticed or Unappreciated Commons is a very small team and our podcast teams even smaller. So we really take our time to try and bring you topics, ideas, and questions that you can keep coming back to as a resource. So thank you for sticking with us. Independent media needs your support more than ever. It's something we really can't take for granted, and this show is no exception. So if you want this show to keep going, I have four requests. First, follow the show on whatever platform you listen. Second, review the show please. It can be a few heart emojis or a full essay. I promise I will read it and appreciate it all and it will help us get more ears on the show.

Katelan (30:33):

Number three, share the show with a friend or all your friends, post it on your social media or in your group chat. And finally, as I mentioned, this show is coming at you from Commons. So if you haven't downloaded the app and you're in the US or Canada, there's a link to do that in the show notes. Hundreds of thousands of people just like you are using Commons to make their money count by budgeting, saving, and shopping better for themselves and the planet as ever. It's been a joy and a privilege to hear from so many of you this season and get your varied perspectives on the show. Since we started Second Nature 37 episodes ago, we featured voices from folks across 50 countries. Isn't that incredible? I can't believe that. If you've always wanted to hear your voice on Second Nature, we want that too. Whether it'll be your first time or you're a season submitter, you'll get your chance to submit to our new season very, very soon. So keep your ears out for that. If you've already submitted, but you haven't heard your voice on the show yet, do not worry a friend. We are always tapping into past season submissions for future episodes. Today you heard from [credits]

Katelan (31:52):

If you know, you know that all 37 episodes of Second Nature have been edited and engineered by my friend Evan Goodchild, and they've been written and produced by me, Kaitlyn Cunningham. We'll be back here very, very soon. Keep at it my friends.

Mary (32:09):

My name is Mary and I'm involved with Turtle Up. Turtle Up is a nonprofit dedicated to the conservation of Ghana Sea Turtles using a community based approach. The organization works in a variety of projects from education, waste reduction, and ocean conservation. Some of our most recent projects include Beach Patrol, turtle Tracking, and Education in Ohio.

Jana (32:33):

Hello, my name is Jana Hawken Joss and I am the CEO and Founder of Earth Friends. And what we do is provide a teaching framework in which young children get to build a foundation for understanding all life and all systems really. So they have an idea of this magical planet earth that we live on and all that it provides and what we can do to take care of it. It's for three to eight year olds. In the years to come, today's children are going to be met with quite a complexity of natural and humanitarian changes. And that's why we created Earth Friends, because we want to help these children face that future with a deeper understanding of their impact. Because we believe that the youngest generation can rewrite the story of distraction and disconnection and diminishment of our natural world, and that instead Earth friends, these young children can be the future of our positive human impact. So we would love for anyone to help us spread the word to our small organization, to get to thousands of teachers and parents and decision makers in schools about our program, about how they can implement it with existing curricula from preschool onward into kindergarten and first grade, and then really set these kids up for success. Thank you so much for learning a bit more about Earth Friends. If you have any questions at all, check out the website@earthfriends.us or send us an email at hello at Earth Friends us.

Leena (34:17):

Some of the most profound lessons I have learned from nature come from silence. The forest teaches presence without the need for a language. A river teaches movement without resistance. The sky teaches RAness without ego. Each element of nature mirrors a word true that our civilization has forgotten. Patience, balance, and humility. To find connection, I often walk to observe. I leave my phone behind and listen. The wrestle of trees, the murmur of water, even the pause between two bird calls, they remind me that ness is a form of intelligence.