‍

Humans have a way of abstracting nature so far from its source that we take something as huge and powerful as water and isolate it, viewing it only as a resource for ourselves rather than an integral part of something much, much bigger than our sinks, showers, and dishwashers.

‍

On this episode, we’re going to try to shrink the distance between ourselves and the water that keeps us alive, we’re going to hear how you’re connecting with water, and we're going to take stock of the ecological and financial impacts of trying to control water. Plus, we’re going to talk to journalist Erica Gies about how we need to change our relationship with water for our safety, our health, and the health of the ecosystems we’re a part of.

‍

Episode Credits

• Listener contributions: Ally, Braden Marazzo-Nowicki, Leïla Six, Louka, Markos Delaportas, Nick Blocha, Sunseed Desert Technology, Tavia, Danielle Bird
• Editing and engineering: Evan Goodchild‍
• Hosting and production: Katelan Cunningham

‍

Episode Transcript

‍

Katelan (00:01):

Well, hello there and welcome back to Second Nature, a podcast from Commons. Commons is the act that hundreds of thousands of people use to track, budget, save, and shop for themselves and the planet. And this is the show where we talk to people about how they're living sustainably in an unsustainable world. The late winter and the early spring are the snowiest times of year in the Sierra Nevada mountains in Eastern California. In spring, when that snow melts, it turns into water, which runs down through the many rivers, creeks, reservoirs, and lakes of the Owens Valley, 270 miles north of Los Angeles. This gargantuan feat of early 20th century engineering is made up of 130 miles of concrete channels running underground and along hill size, transporting over 50% of LA's water to the city's 4 million residents, including me. While most of LA's water comes from the Owens Valley, 36% of our water is imported from the Colorado River and other rivers in Northern California. And the rest, just about 5%, comes from our own groundwater and wastewater. LA's water story is a bit more complex and corruption laden than most, but what it does have in common with many cities is that it's a story of control and distance. In most cities, that control and distance removes us so much from the snowy peaks, roaring rivers and crystal lakes that supply the water that comes through our taps.

Katelan (01:45):

We humans have a way of abstracting nature so far from its source that we take something as huge and powerful as water and we isolate it, viewing it only as a resource for ourselves rather than an integral part of something much, much bigger than our sinks, showers, and dishwashers. On today's show, we're gonna try and shrink that distance between ourselves and the water that keeps us alive. We're going to hear how you are connecting with water. We're gonna take stock of the ecological and financial impacts of trying to control water, and we're going to talk to journalist Erica Gies about how we need to change our relationship with water for our own safety, for our health, and the health of the ecosystems we're a part of. Here we go. In case you missed it, earlier this year, the UN released a report titled Global Water Bankruptcy, living Beyond Our Hydrological Means in the Post-Crisis Era. If this sounds alarming, that's actually the point.

Katelan (02:56):

I think it can be pretty well summed up by this statement. Declaring bankruptcy is both an admission of failure and the first step toward a fresh start. Claims are written down, expectations are reset, and a new more realistic balance sheet is negotiated to prevent further collapse. There is some really powerful clarifying language in this report. I actually think everyone should take a look at it. The bankruptcy analogy is not for dramatic effect, but for clarity. When a person or a company is bankrupt, they can no longer recoup their losses. Instead, they have to start on a new plan. The report goes on to explain how we've polluted waters and withdrawn water beyond the point of complete recovery. We've depleted natural water sources like wetlands to a point that they cannot rebound from. And this is sad and really sucks. There is no going back to the way things were. Instead, we have to engineer more thoughtful solutions for the present and future reality. I don't know about you, but this is an exercise I've found myself going through time and time again, mourning the way things were, understanding the way things are and changing my outlook on how to adapt. It is exhausting, but we must persevere. This new reality about our relationship with water has left many of us in a state of worry and mourning, but also of action.

Leïla Six (04:36):

In my Song River, I suggest that because my body is made mainly of water, whenever I go into a river, I become the river. The water of my body joins the water of the earth. And of course it is poetic, but it is also very political because if the water in my body is the same as the water in the river or in the ocean or in the clouds, then I instantly understand how important it is to protect these waters, to protect the water cycle and health.

Louka (05:32):

One of my climate concerns were about the access to safe and drinkable water as it's getting more dry and hot, even for developed country. For me it's a really big concern because water is essential to ens pretty much anything that live on earth. And seeing that it's getting more dry and getting access to safe and drinkable water, like I said, is getting harder and harder. It's like a really big concern because we can't do anything if we don't have water.

Markos (06:04):

I am concerned with a shortage of clean water and especially how it will drive crop prices up. Clean water shortage impacts everyone and not only people who directly do not have access to it.

Danielle (06:21):

Well, private water companies spilled nearly 4 million hours worth of raw sewage into our waterways in 2023, which was double from the previous year, and they continue to do so. This is because since going into private ownership, there's been no investment into the infrastructure which is built in the Victorian era, and instead, shareholders and CEOs have been paid in the billions.

Sunseed (06:44):

We have been working with various and environmental organization for several else years to denounce the e side of the river. Yet they still don't not recognize the river as being with rights.

Braden (07:00):

I used to row on the Anacostia River connected to the Potomac in dc I've worked with the Anacostia River keepers on water quality monitoring, so I know firsthand how polluted it is. Lots of e coli, lots of toxic chemicals, lots of dumping, but uh, different companies. We've had recent lawsuits against these companies that have been successful and recent efforts to restore the river have been really meaningful, uh, really bring me a lot of hope. In the case of the Anacostia, you have a connection between environmental degradation and the dehumanization of people, the marginalization of people in certain communities, and there's a feedback loop. So with the Anacostia, the companies dump toxic chemicals because the people living by the river were maybe from lower income brackets, predominantly black and brown, and they turn the river, which was once an essential part of the community into this toxic dumping site. And then they justify destruction of the river by associating the toxic dumping and the mess with the people. Uh, and I think that's a nasty feedback loop, which the action being taken to to restore the river helps to disrupt

Tavia (08:25):

When brushing our teeth or washing their hands, we tell them we don't want to waste water. Water is very precious. I try to make it clear to them not everyone has water on tap and they need to be grateful that they are so privileged to be able to just have water whenever they want and not to waste it.

Danielle (08:45):

Do I take political climate action? Uh, I do through lobbying, raising awareness on social media, writing to mp, signing petitions and so on do stand with activists that peacefully protest as well. I believe that any political climate actions such as campaign and lobbying, just being persistent and consistent can still make a difference.

Sunseed (09:06):

Yeah, that's where we have a festival each year in the defense of the river <laugh>. And also sometimes we just organize for ourselves like the trash, uh, clean up from the beach and we just try to, you know, be aware of it as a community

Nick (09:24):

Because in my mind, when we are fed,

Katelan (09:37):

Water is essential for life. So how did we get here? How did we get to a place where our relationship with water is so messed up? How do we start to restore even parts of our relationship with water? Erica Guyes is a great person to answer those questions. She's an independent journalist covering science and the environment. She's written for the New York Times Scientific American Nature, the Economist, national Geographic, and she's the author of the book. Water Always Wins, thriving in an age of Drought and deluge. And I have to tell you, this book changed everything I thought I knew about water. Hey Erica, thanks for coming on the show.

Erica Gies (10:24):

Thanks for inviting me.

Katelan (10:26):

I wanted to start off with this statement that really struck me. You've said before that water has agency. I found that at once kind of like very jarring, but also very obvious because water is such a force of life, which is just an understatement in general, but of course it has agency. But I feel like often humans have enough trouble thinking of other living creatures is having agency much less something like water that can feel like a stretch. What exactly does that mean when you say water has agency and how can we shift our actions to be more in line with that truth?

Erica Gies (11:05):

It's interesting that you said it's jarring and I get that, but you know, many, many cultures around the world have seen water as a relation or a friend. When I say water has agency, I mean part of it is right in the title of my book. Water Always Wins, right? Water is a very strong powerful force. It continues to seek its own path, despite when we try to control it, you know, it carves rock like we see in the Grand Canyon, but it also has complex intricate relationships with rock and soil microbes, fungi, plants, beavers people. Really what my book is about is exploring these relationships and trying to understand how does water work. Water is one of those subjects that the more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn. And it's just getting up to so many interesting things and the idea that we might be able to control it is really just a joke. And I think a lot of that comes down to its agency.

Katelan (12:16):

In your book, you talk to people who you call water detectives, which is so cool, and it seems like part of their mission is to uncover what water wants, what water is trying to do. Why does it benefit us, not just as humans, but all the different creatures in our ecosystems? Why does it benefit us to learn what water wants?

Erica Gies (12:35):

Yeah. The water detectives I think are approaching water with curiosity. Uh, rather than looking at it as a commodity or a threat in the dominant culture, we have separated ourselves from nature, uh, really as an excuse to exploit nature for wealth and not for the wealth of all of us, but the wealth of the, the richest among us and the ones who pay the, the consequences of that, the fallout are the rest of us humans and the rest of the environment and non-human beings. You know, we have a real tendency in the dominant culture to think in terms of single focus problem solving. And so through that lens, that's why we see water as a commodity if it's scarce, if we're in drought, if there's not enough or as a threat, if we're worried about flooding. And the problem with that thinking is it really leads to trying to solve one problem at a time.

Erica Gies (13:36):

And we see that in so much of what we do in the dominant culture, and there are often unintended consequences. And that happens with water because as I was saying earlier, you know, water is part of many complex natural systems. And so if you try to address one thing head on, you know, you're creating unintended consequences throughout that web of of life. And throughout that watershed that's all interrelated mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so the water detectives, instead of taking that approach, they are asking what does water want? And the reason is a lot of the ways in which when we approach water as a commodity or a threat and we try to control it, we are causing these unintended consequences. Um, and we have constrained water to some degree, uh, until water is able to kind of bust out of that. And so by asking instead, what does water want, the water detectives are looking to collaborate with water and make space for waters relationships. And in so doing it can dramatically fix a lot of these, um, complex problems that we've created for ourselves.

Katelan (14:50):

Yeah. Diving into those problems a little bit more, um, you talk a lot in the book about control, and so we kind of default to this, let's try to control this thing. We see water as commodity or threat and our solutions to try to control it. So I just wanted to figure out like, how's that going for us? It seems probably not very good <laugh>.

Erica Gies (15:08):

Yeah. What I tried to point out in the book, it it, it really is about trying to change the culture of how we relate to water to avoid these, um, unintended negative consequences that we are causing ourselves. Because, you know, there's been a big increase in flood and drought and lately there's a lot of talk of like, oh, it, it's climate change. And climate change is definitely one factor, but a big factor also is the way that we relate to water on land. Yeah. The good news is that we have a lot of agency to change that and to create natural buffers for ourselves for flood and drought. And so one thing I think people don't really realize is the scale at which we have dramatically altered the water cycle. So humans have degraded 75% of land on earth, wow. By, you know, industrial agriculture, logging, grazing, mining cities, urban sprawl.

Erica Gies (16:07):

If you look at water statistics, we have drained or filled as much as 87% of wetlands. We have encroached on floodplains just since 1992, an area the size of Ukraine. And you know, floodplains exist to absorb floods. So when we build a levee and then we think, oh, we're all safe, let's just put a, you know, some homes and businesses behind that, well, like, you know, water has a memory, water wants to go where it wants to go. And so basically you're just putting more people at risk of flooding by by doing that in all these ways, we have tried to control water, we've encroached on what water wants, but water is going to do what it wants to do sooner or later. And if we don't accommodate that, if we don't make space for that, it's going to be, uh, pretty harsh for us.

Katelan (17:05):

And a lot of your research, you've looked at kind of ways that people have had a better relationship with water for many, many generations. What are some of the long-term solutions that we can learn either from cultures that have been doing this for a long time or perhaps even here in the US or more modern solutions either way, what are some like long-term solutions that you've seen that are beneficial for our long-term relationship with water?

Erica Gies (17:32):

Yeah, I mean, my book is really about solutions. So I did go around the world and I found people who are taking, collaborating with water to scale the scale of states or even countries. And that's not to say that countries have solved at all that these places exist, but there are national policies that are, are seeking to change this culture of how we relate to water. And in some cases, I was looking at more ancient cultures. So a really cool one was, uh, in the Andes Mountains of Peru. The Pacific coast of Peru is similar to the Pacific coast of California in that they have a long dry season and a a shorter wet season mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so people in the mountains who are trying to farm would direct water during the, the wet season from the high flowing streams into these natural infiltration basins.

Erica Gies (18:30):

And water running over land goes much faster than it does moving through rock and soil underground. And so by helping it go underground, they were extending the availability of water long into the dry season. Yeah. And so it would come out further down the mountain out of a spring where they would then harvest it, and then they had a communal system of sharing that water resource so that everybody could have some for their crops. In recent years, the city of Lima is about a third of the Peruvian population. They're having dramatic water scarcity issues. The glaciers that they've relied upon for summer water have been melting. One of the things that they're looking at is going up into the mountains, understanding that they are connected to the water sources in the mountains, helping the water to infiltrate in these traditional systems again into the ground.

Erica Gies (19:27):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which then extends. Um, and so a lot of these systems had fallen into this repair. And so one interesting thing that they're doing is they have a national law that takes money from every water utility bill. So this is a recognition that the water that they need in the city comes from the wider watershed. And that investing in making sure those natural systems are healthy by restoring this early indigenous system, or, um, there's a natural ecosystem up in the mountains called boles or cushion bog, uh, that also holds water into the dry season. Um, so, uh, protecting and restoring those is also part of what this utility money goes to. There are a bunch of stories like that in my book. Maybe better to just tell you about that one in a little bit more detail.

Katelan (20:20):

You live in San Francisco. Is there anything exciting that's happened with water in San Francisco? Like, the thing I'm kind of wondering is, I live in Los Angeles, we talk about water all the time here. I wonder if people maybe have trouble sort of keeping tabs on like water things that are happening in their cities. It feels like something to kind of like kind of difficult maybe to advocate for or to get information about. So I'm wondering how have you experienced that where you live? Is there anything that you kind of look to with upcoming, like ballots and things like that? Has there been any action in San Francisco that, that you can point to as far as like laws and relationship with water as a city?

Erica Gies (20:59):

Yeah. I mean, cities are so interesting, right? So many of us live in cities today and it really dissociates us from the source of our water and understanding it and where it comes from. And in California, and I think a lot of dry places, if we do have a creek or a stream in our local area, it tends to be really industrialized. So it's often straightened. Uh, a natural waterway tends to have more sinuous s-curves, and then when it's straightened, it flows faster. That's fast water, right? And so then that causes erosion. And so then we put concrete on the banks like the LA river or yeah, um, sandbags. Uh, and we really armor it and that just increases the scouring. And so a lot of times if you see a, a creek in your town, it's like 20 feet below where you're standing. And that's because right, that fast water has carved it down.

Erica Gies (21:58):

Wow. And also often there's not water in it. Now, historically, a lot of western streams did have water year round. And the way in which we have industrialized our streams and overused means that then, you know, we only have water when it rains. And so there's a really interesting relationship between surface water and groundwater. And in California for a long time, and in other places too, groundwater was sort of seen as this magic water, right? Oh, you have water scarcity, let's just pump some groundwater. And then we have groundwater year round. Well, groundwater and surface water are the same water. They're connected in the underground. And so when you pump groundwater, you're also further decreasing your surface water supply. And we have this real scarcity mindset when it comes to water in the dominant culture. But in fact, what people around the world are discovering is when you take care of water, when you have water to slow on land, you are providing water to your plants.

Erica Gies (23:02):

That means they're less likely to burn, you're less likely to have these extreme fires. The plants transpire water into the air, which is part of where rain comes from. And so when you have beavers on the land, when you have healthy plants on the land, you're helping, uh, keep that water cycle going and you're helping to keep the water. So, you know, la uh, is a quintessential example because the LA river has become this, uh, terrible industrial channel that is often dry, and then when the rains come, it just gushes all of this water out to the ocean, right? Yeah. And then the rest of the year there's water scarcity. So there have been projects where people have wanted to restore part of the LA River and its tributaries to help that water linger on the floodplains again, and to recharge the groundwater and to keep the plants hydrated.

Erica Gies (24:01):

That has been super minimal and peripheral and the powers that be have really fought that. But I would say that people, not just in la, but around the world who advocate for, um, the kind of re naturalization of their waterways, that can be really powerful. I wrote a story last year about the Knick Nick River, which is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and they were having a lot of problems with flooding. So part of what they're doing to solve that is giving the knick Nick River back, some of its floodplains, creating parkland around that and giving it a natural space to expand. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I know LA has also had some stormwater proposals, uh, you know, where more of the city is permeable. This is a takeoff of the Chinese Sponge Cities, uh, initiative, which I talk about in my book. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. In know it's really a global phenomenon and China calls it sponge cities.

Erica Gies (24:59):

Um, the United States calls it low impact design. <laugh>, that's not as fun. Yeah. <laugh>, it goes by different names. Um, but there have been a lot of proposals to try to capture more of the storm water where it falls, which keeps it available for later. So it decreases the pressure on storm stormwater systems because more of the water is slowing and being held in the ground. Uh, and it also makes more of it available for later. So I've talked mostly about LA you asked me about San Francisco. Um, San Francisco has been trying to implement more of this. You'll see more kind of bump outs around street trees and, uh, medians and things like that. Ah, um, more, uh, stormwater drains along roads that help water infiltrate that are lined with native plants, that kind of thing. There is a groundwater recharge project on the west side of the city that is, uh, capturing that rainwater and putting it back into the ground and pumping and using that locally.

Erica Gies (26:04):

San Francisco is a weird example because there really wasn't a lot of water here naturally. Hmm. And that's true of other places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, LA did have some natural water, but of course it's expanded way beyond what it could naturally support. You know, San Francisco kind of infamously gets water from he Hetchy, which is a, a reservoir up in near Yosemite mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it really doesn't have hope of having enough of its own natural water to support the population that is here now. But this recharge project on the west side of the city is now supplying 8% <laugh> of San Francisco's water. Okay. So it's not, not, it's not a lot, but it's a step and it, it what Yeah. What I think is important about it is to the extent that people in the city know about it, it gets us thinking about, okay, where does our water come from? Exactly. And not just what can water do for us, but what can we do for water?

Katelan (27:01):

Yes. You said that a farmer said to you, and I forgot what region you were in, um, so if you could remind me, but she said, if we plant the water, we can harvest the water. Yeah. And that was completely mind blowing for me. <laugh>. Yeah.

Erica Gies (27:14):

I was like, oh

Katelan (27:14):

My God, that's magical.

Erica Gies (27:16):

That was the Peruvian example. But I found that sentiment in other places too. Like I went to Kenya where they've had a real population explosion and people moving into the highlands and cutting forests and turning to agriculture. Mm. Actually Kenya, the national government, is really thinking of water more holistically, and they talk about the water producers who are the people up in the mountains and the water consumers who are the people down in the city. And it really ties that watershed together and understanding that relationship, like we need to take care of the mountains and the source of the water if we're going to have water down below.

Katelan (27:56):

You've talked a lot about slowing water down. So for my last question, I just wanted to ask if you could talk a little bit about the slow water movement and how we can advocate and implement slow water solutions in our cities, or even just in our neighborhoods or at our homes.

Erica Gies (28:11):

Yeah. One thing that's really interesting about water is that it's very local. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's empowering. You know, we're waiting for international leaders to agree on climate solutions, but slow water projects are something that we can do in our own neighborhoods, in our own cities and regions and with our, in cooperation with our neighbors. And that way it's like the slow food movement, uh, that came outta Italy in the 1980s. And the idea is that what we do locally matters and every place is unique. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But there are some common principles. So working with local geology, biology, and culture rather than trying to fight against it, protecting water's, natural slow phases, what does water want? Making space for wetlands, floodplains, these natural slowing spots because it can really have an outsized impact. If you make space for water where water wants to go, you don't have to give it space everywhere.

Erica Gies (29:13):

Right. Yeah. It can have an outsized impact. Another characteristic of the slow water movement is systems thinking rather than single focused problem solving. Yep. So making space for natural systems to work and to maintain their relationships. It's ideally local, you know, helping us to understand the local water cycle and availability and work within it. Just a quick statistic about that. People may know that levies often push problems onto others. So, you know, if you protect one community, the water can't go into its floodplain, and so the water level in the river is higher and that creates higher flood risk for people nearby. But dams are also an environmental justice issue. There was an interesting study that looked at a 40 year global impact and found that big dams had brought water to 20% of the world's population and decreased water availability to 24% of the world's population.

Erica Gies (30:12):

Wow. So it's not a solution to like, oh, we need water, let's just bring it from somewhere else. Like, it's not just that you're bringing it from another ecosystem, which is also important, but you're also taking it away from other people. The last feature I would say about the slow water movement is it's community focused. So in some places like Peru or India or Kenya, you had local people who are actively working to maintain these systems that worked with water in North America. You know, we might not see that so much because we have experts that sort of manage it. Yeah. But this decentralized rather than centralized solution is a big part of it. Sometimes that can just be like an educational component, like if you have an industrial area by a river and that, you know, the industry goes elsewhere and maybe that's remediated and restored and it becomes an urban park, which then is a floodplain and can flood when necessary. You know, sometimes you might see signage in your park of, uh, the animals that live there and the the function that that, uh, wetland or that park area is doing in relationship to water. So that's another way that these projects can be, uh, community facing.

Katelan (31:27):

I love that this has been so eye-opening. Thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your book. Water Always Wins. I've found it to be super fascinating and I really hope people pick it up and check it out.

Erica Gies (31:39):

Thank you. Thanks very much for having me. It was fun talking with you

Katelan (31:48):

Not to keep bringing it back to LA Water Crimes, but if you've ever seen the movie Chinatown, you've seen how like most natural resources bringing money into the equation incentivizes, shortsighted, selfish actions which end up costing us big time, not just costing our environment, our health and our safety, but our finances too. I called up commons founders Sanchali Seth Pal to help us crunch the numbers

Katelan (32:18):

Before your next shower. Consider doing a little research to learn where your water comes from. Trace it back from your tap through the pipes and the processing all the way back to the precious fresh water source where it comes from. It's not manufactured or created in a lab. It comes from nature and it's valuable not for its price tag, but the life it brings us and practically all creatures on earth. As we fight for a more equitable water future. It's important to find reconnection with water in its natural place when we can find ways to translate its value so that we can push for systemic changes in our cities and to remember our ability to make big changes locally. Water is a massive topic and we weren't able to dive into all the aspects of it on this episode, but if you're wondering about water use in ai, scroll on back to our episode list and you'll find we need to talk about AI on that episode. I interview Shale Ren, who's an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of California Riverside. And a lot of his work focuses on data centers, water use. So I think you'll find that interesting.

Katelan (33:36):

Water can actually bring up a lot of emotion, and I really appreciate our community sharing their thoughts and concerns today. You heard from this episode was edited and engineered by Evan Goodchild. It was written and produced by me, Katelan Cunningham. Before you go, if you're looking for local actions to take near you, you might find just the thing from one of these community classifieds. We'll catch you back here next week for our season finale. See you soon.

Lynn (34:19):

My name is Lynn and I'm involved with Slow Food Youth in Germany, which is part of a global network with national and local chapters, the Slow Food Youth Network. United has groups of young food enthusiast chefs, activists, students, and food producers who participate in public debate about current issues and introduce young people to the world of gastronomy. Through our events and activities, we raise awareness about important food issues such as how to feed the world food waste and sustainable food production, simulating positive action.

Marcy (34:53):

My name is Marcy Thrash and I am the program director for Project Animal Aid. Uh, project Animal Aid is a animal welfare and environmental conservation organization based out of Boulder, Colorado. We collect and distribute medical supplies that would have otherwise ended up in the landfill, and we collect these from veterinary hospitals, human hospitals, manufacturers, individual donors. Um, we then divert these items from the landfill and put them in the hands of about 120 animal welfare groups all over the world, free of charge. Um, so this way we are helping our planet reducing waste and also saving animal lives. Uh, we are growing very rapidly. We have tons of inquiries all the time for supplies and equipment coming in, as well as a very, very long wait list for animal welfare groups that need help. Since we we're growing so fast, we have outgrown our current space, and we're currently in the process of moving into a larger warehouse so we can help even more animals. So that is our group. That is what we do. If you're interested in supporting us, please let me know

Ally (36:47):

Like. I'm really drawn to water, so if I go to like a beach or a reservoir or something and I just breathe, sit out there and breathe, and then you really like, hear everything that's going on around you and you notice things in nature and appreciate it more.