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Lawns cover more American soil than any other irrigated crop — but who decided they should look this way, and at what cost? In this episode, we trace the centuries-old aristocratic tradition behind the modern lawn, expose the billion-dollar industry profiting from invasive grasses and toxic chemicals, and with the help of nature educator Jason Wise (aka Journeyman), we’ll explore how your patch of green could become something far more prosperous. If you've ever questioned the monoculture outside your front door, this one's for you.

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Episode Credits

• Listener contributions: Craig Brown, Nick Blocha, Lena, Grace Kinney-Broderick, Haley Murphy
• Research: Makenna McBrierty
• Editing and engineering: Evan Goodchild‍
• Hosting and production: Katelan Cunningham

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Episode transcript

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Katelan Cunningham (00:00):

Welcome back, my friends, to an all new spring season of Second Nature, a podcast from Commons. Commons is the app that hundreds of thousands of people are using every day to track, budget, save, and shop for themselves and the planet. And this is a show where we talk to people about how they're living sustainably. In an unsustainable world, most Americans, about 80% have a lawn, or at least have had a lawn at some point in time. And if you've had a lawn, the chances are it looked a lot like your neighbor's lawn,

Katelan Cunningham (00:49):

A swatch of green in front of your house, duplex or apartment building. It'd be surrounded by a cement sidewalk. Maybe there's a driveway on one side. After it's cut, your lawn may have nice tidy rows of perfectly straight mower lines. Perhaps it's flanked by flower beds, or maybe there are a couple trees adding some structure to look down a residential neighborhood of lawns. They may appear as if they're isolated islands of green floating above a sea of cement and asphalt. But our lawns are not the islands. They're the sea, my friends, because underneath sidewalks and roads is soil. So in fact, it's the paths of cement and asphalt. They are the islands floating above the earth. Beneath our lawns are much more connected than they seem, and when we start to think of them as interconnected, integral functioning parts of our neighborhood ecosystems, we may start to wonder why does a conventional lawn look the way it does in the first place? I'm your host, Kaitlyn Cunningham, and today on the show we're talking lawns, an over $50 billion industry built on fertilizers, pesticides, non-native grasses, gas powered lawnmowers, and centuries old ideas of wealth and status. We're gonna figure out how this landscaping trend has lasted hundreds of years. The kinds of companies profiting off its popularity, what lawns are doing to our local ecosystems, and most importantly, how we can turn our lawns into plots that are prosperous for the soil, the pollinators, and for our dinner tables too. Here we go.

Katelan Cunningham (02:38):

The crisp manicured grassy plots we call lawns, started gaining popularity in the 17 hundreds, but they weren't for everyone. You had to be very, very rich because to have an upkeep, a lawn required many acres of land and lots of money to pay people to maintain these living status symbols, which is why they were merely popular among the English and French nobility. Having a lawn was a major flex because you could have all these acres of land that you didn't need to use for growing food or building shelter. Of course, this trend turned into somewhat of a tradition as it expanded westward to the Americas. The plans of those early landscape designers have rippled across streets, avenues, and boulevards all over the world ever since.

Katelan Cunningham (03:29):

Lawns aren't completely unattractive to look at. And at first glance, perhaps they don't look totally unnatural. Grass is a plant after all, but if you look at native grasses and wild settings like meadows, prairies, Savannahs, these are not landscapes with just one type of grass at one height all the way across. Instead, they're lush with a diversity of grasses, segs, wild flowers, all unkempt left to grow flower and seed to their full potential, which is why you'll find these areas buzzing with life, pollinators, reptiles, small mammals, large mammals, all of whom use these grassy terrains for food and shelter. That is a far cry from the sterile grass plots that we're used to seeing in more urban and suburban settings. The most common grass species that you're gonna find in lawns across the US are actually not native to this country at all. Native bluegrass and Bermuda grass are two of the most popular, and they're both invasive. Here in the United States. Kentucky Bluegrass is taking over prairie lands while Bermuda grass is taking over grasslands. As is the case with many invasive plants, these grasses will squash out native plants and strip the soil leaving behind basically an ecological path of destruction. Not to mention the upkeep. The aesthetic expectations of a traditional lawn are pretty straightforward, but not so easy to maintain.

Katelan Cunningham (04:58):

Mowing keeps it cropped nice and short, most often with a gas powered lawnmower. In 2020, gas powered lawn equipment produced the same amount of particulate pollution as 234 million in cars and more carbon dioxide than the entire city of Los Angeles. Then there's the fertilizers, which keep it green, and the pesticides which keep the bugs away. These not only disrupt natural cycles like bee navigation, but they also run off into our waterways. As fertilizers wash off of lawns into waterways, it causes nutrient overgrowth in algae blooms, which starves plants and animals that live in the water of oxygen while pesticides, on the other hand, bring toxic substances into waterways. And high concentrations also a big problem. Plus the model lawn leaves little space for diversity. You may have heard this phrase, especially if you're a gardener, it goes something like a weed is just a plant in a place you don't want it. Well, if what you're going for is a stark grass lawn, any plant besides the grass is considered a weed.

Katelan Cunningham (06:05):

Colonizers brought lawns from Europe to America, and they proliferated the idea of lawns so much so that they became part of an iconic image of the American dream. Single family home, two cars in the driveway, vibrant green lawn, and sure throw in a picket fence. It's a bit absurd when I think back on it like this. We have spent centuries and billions of dollars proliferating, intending to these invasive mono crops for the sake of upholding in aristocratic tradition of wealth, when instead we could be using our land to create spaces filled with beautiful, fragrant, delicious, welcoming, abundance.

Grace Kinney-Broderick (06:45):

I'm still working on helping my dad kill his lawn, but it really started with birds. I gave him a bird feeder for Father's Day a few years ago, and he put it sort of out of sight as not to disrupt his perfect lawn. As birds started to show up to that tucked away feeder, he fell in love with them. And so flash forward to today, he has over six bird feeders all over his yard. I've used that as a jumping off point to explain that birds will appreciate a more native habitat as well.

Haley Kline Murphy (07:16):

When we bought our home, we replaced the front lawn with Native and Xeric Landscaping, some plants that I started from seed, and then other plants that I sourced from a local nursery, getting plants that were drought tolerant and good for pollinators and native to the region. And just selecting all of that was so much fun. That was a couple years ago, and each year it comes back fuller and stronger. We have this micro ecosystem in our front yard now, and that has been so fulfilling. Our dogs eat most of our tomatoes, things like that before we can pick them, but we're trying to grow our own food. I don't know if it's made much of a difference, but I hope it has. I can say that when I had the opportunity to choose a less harmful solution or path that I always chose, the one of harm reduction,

Nick Blocha (08:18):

The best thing is to replace your lawn, allowing your native ecosystem to return or something that's similar and better for your specific environment. Take Oklahoma City, for example, where my mom is, there's clover that has come in over her lawn, things that other people call weeds, but it's what's going to grow in the very clay field soil, as well as work with your local native plant producers. Your local nurseries should try to figure out what plants are native. You can do pollinators, you can even section off parts of your garden or parts of your lawn, and then let other parts kind of be more rocky or whatever naturally wants to be there. Some of the biggest challenges to killing and replacing your lawn that I've endured was upfront cost, time

Craig Brown (09:07):

And ticks. We live in the Northeast Tick season starts in March and does not end until December. There were several instances where our kids were bit by ticks, uh, just from playing in the sandbox. And so we took care of that. We used dime tenacious Earth and swapped out the sand and got that down. But a lot of it was stemming from the fact that the taller grasses were getting closer and closer. So we started mowing our lawn again. And when we did the tick issue went down significantly. We're moving some native plants closer to the house from the edge of the woods, but keeping the high traffic areas of lawn where our dog goes out and where our kids go out short. And by allowing some native plants to take up the lawn, it's shrunk in size, so we're mowing less.

Nick Blocha (10:09):

Yes, it can be expensive to put in new plants, new seeds, and it can take more time than you may be expecting to regrow something, especially if you're looking for different kinds of grasses. But I think it's also really rewarding.

Nick Blocha (10:24):

Some

Nick Blocha (10:24):

Of the biggest challenges you're probably gonna face is your HOA and research into your native plants. And sometimes what's required is that we change things for the better, and then policy is forced to change with us. Less pesticides, more pollinators increases our health. These things are poisons for us and for the birds, for the microorganisms, for all the insects that call our lawn a home. And I find myself more connected to the seasons. I find myself caring and thinking about the ecosystem that I'm hosting rather than invasive Kentucky bluegrass, which is the majority of our lawns, which has no erosion control. It's expensive. They die every year anyway. Might as well do something that's going to look a little bit better rather than just straight manicured.

Lena (11:23):

I didn't kill my lawn, but in most recent years, I have convinced my dad to stop mowing parts of our lawn and to let the grass grow out. And for two summers now, we haven't mowed our front boulevard garden, and we've just seen what will grow. It's kind of incredible how all of these flowers and plants that I had never seen in my yard before in my entire life started popping up. And they had always been there, but they had just been mowed down and not given the chance to grow. So seeing that grow was really incredible. I guess I didn't really kill my lawn. I just let it live. I just kind of want my green spaces, what I'm allotted, um, to be what it wants to be. I can plant whatever I want, but only what the soil wants will grow. I'm not gonna force anything. I just kind of leave it alone, water it and see what will happen. But seeing all of the bugs and flowers come back to my neighborhood has been empowering and I've loved it so much. And I hope to, um, stop mowing other parts of my lawn soon. So we'll see.

Katelan Cunningham (12:34):

Lawns have become so ubiquitous that if even just half of the lawns in America were replaced with native plants, we'd create a 20 million acre national park, nine times bigger than Yellowstone. Of course, if you wanna embrace a more native approach to your lawn, it's not always as easy as just throwing out a handful of seeds. Native plants are low maintenance by nature. That's one of the things that makes them amazing. But you'll wanna pick ones that are right for your soil, right for the amount of sun that they'd get in the area of your lawn that you'd put them and write for the amount of rain that you get in your region. The trick is that in doing all of this, you are becoming a more active participant in your neighborhood and your community from all walks of life. I'm talking bugs, birds, everything in between. No one knows this better than Jason Wise. You may know him better on social media as Jason Journeyman. Jason is a naturalist, a professional outdoor educator, and a habitat restoration coordinator. He's also rewild his own lawn here in Los Angeles, and I wanted to find out how he did it.

Katelan Cunningham (13:44):

Hey, Jason, thanks for coming on the show.

Jason Wise (13:46):

Hi. Thanks for having me, <laugh>. I'm really excited to be here.

Katelan Cunningham (13:50):

Yes, you are chatting with us from your front lawn, which you have

Jason Wise (13:54):

Former front lawn, former

Katelan Cunningham (13:55):

Front lawn <laugh>. That's right,

Jason Wise (13:57):

Yes. <laugh>.

Katelan Cunningham (13:59):

So <laugh>, can you tell us a little bit about what your lawn was like when you moved in and what was your initial sort of vision and mission for how you wanted to transform that space?

Jason Wise (14:11):

Yeah. I was already kind of working in the native plant space and volunteering at local nurseries and planting in like parks and restoration areas. And I was like, I don't want that lawn. It's so sterile. Mm, yeah. And old fashioned, right? Because lawns go back to like land owners in Europe and England, you know, and to prove that you could afford someone to go with scissors out and cut that grass to make it look that even, yes, it was like a status symbol. And somehow we imported it in the, like the fifties here in these sprawling neighborhoods. I like being out in nature on a hike and seeing that. So as soon as we, I moved into this place, I was like, okay, I, this is gonna be gone <laugh>. Like I'm gonna go through the whole process to get rid of it and just kind of rewild it.

Jason Wise (14:55):

So it went from a place where it was nothing in this whole lawn area space to now a bunch of different plants and flowers, and there's butterflies going around and um, squirrels and scrub jays that go off the oak tree and get acorns and Wow. I'm pretty sure like right here, this is like deer grass that keeps getting flattened down. And I've seen coyotes out here a couple times. I think that they're using it as a bed 'cause it's like soft. Yeah. So it's like a little dog bed, like, and I'm cool with that. The point of this was to create an island of habitat for wildlife in the neighborhood that maybe doesn't have a, a lot of it. So yeah, I love the transition that's happened here that I see it come alive.

Katelan Cunningham (15:33):

Yeah. What is the rest of your street like? Is there a lot of wild, I know you're in Los Angeles, like, is there a lot of other lawns or people doing things like you're doing with your space?

Jason Wise (15:43):

There are some lawns, there are some just kind of not really keeping track of it and have weeds, some that are rewild with native plants. There's an amazing house down the street of someone that I chat with on TikTok. She's like, oh my God, I saw your, I walked my dog by and I'm like, I walked by yours too. Um, where we like, we're like, you know, game recognized game with the native plants, <laugh>. But, uh, um, I, and then anytime I see someone put in some native plants, I'm like, oh yeah, you, if I see them, I'm gonna like compliment them on that plant. Um, and then some other people that are just doing, you know, like maybe drought tolerant things. I think that this neighborhood's, it's uniquer than some, there's no homeowners association, like some places have where you're like getting right a ticket because you had some wildflowers in the front, um, hanging over the sidewalk a little bit. So I appreciate that. I kind of have, I get to do what I want and I still keep it maintained, but just with a little bit more of a wilderness vibe. And as far as the feedback I get, I've never had anyone complain. I've had lots of people come by while I was doing work on it, being like, I love what you're doing with this yard. So <laugh>,

Katelan Cunningham (16:44):

That's incredible. Has your vision shifted? I feel like as a sort of entry level gardener myself, you sort of are like, okay, I'm gonna do, I planted all these native flowers and then two days later they'd been eaten. So it's kind of like you have to shift and adapt with the sort of the environment that, that you're in Uhhuh. And I'm wondering how you've had to do that to create the space that you dreamed of.

Jason Wise (17:07):

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it is constant work in progress. I think that is with any plant ownership that would go with any relationship with any other living thing. <laugh>, can we say that with like friendships with, you know, relationships accurate? Yeah. With your family, with your, your pets. Right? I just, that things evolve over time. Then other everyone else is teaching you things and you're teaching things back in some way. I learned from the plants about how to take care of them by like, oh yeah. The, the ones that died. <laugh> <laugh>. When I was in college, I bought a little teeny plant at the a 99 cent store here in LA and had it in my dorm room. That was like my first plant <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I still have it actually. It's like, wow. Really <laugh>. Um, but I killed a lot of plants along the way and learned like, okay, what did I do wrong?

Jason Wise (17:53):

What happened here? This is the process of just sort of like, you know, as an environmental educator and kind of like thinking about biology and sciences, you're sort of learning the processes that goes along. We're exploring seeing how things change over time. So, okay. Uh, what I did in this yard is that I planted too much. Mm. Because it looked like, oh, there's all this space and I can, I put too many plants too close to each other. And then once they started growing after, especially after a couple of good rain years, it was like they were all overtaking each other and one would shade out the other one and kill the one down here. And I'm like, oh, I learned like, kind of how to better balance things. Hmm. Um, and just certain things that work better in the soil than others. It's a process and you've like, there are things that will eat them. Right. I have a whole California poppy garden area where the gophers like to come in. Oh. So I'll have the poppies looking gorgeous with like 20 flowers on it, and then the next morning they're like, because the root was eaten by a gopher. Oh no. <laugh>. So I learned like, okay, well what I ended up doing there is putting these little baskets in it, the gopher can't get through. Yep. Um, just to have like little poppy preserves in that space. <laugh>,

Katelan Cunningham (18:56):

Yes. Yeah. I, the, the place I just moved to has gophers, which are very new to me. So I, I also found those pages as well, <laugh>. It's like, okay, I'm gonna need something.

Jason Wise (19:05):

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, they, they, they're helpful. <laugh>.

Katelan Cunningham (19:07):

Yeah. I'm, I'm so glad you brought up relationships because um, we had Robin Wall Kimer on last season and she was talking about just this sense of belonging to the environment that you're in. Right? Like, not necessarily your city or your state, but like the land that that you occupy and the relationship with the plants and the animals. So I just wondered, since rewilding your lawn, how has your relationship changed with your personal space there?

Jason Wise (19:35):

I love seeing, well the plants grow themselves, but also just every, bring everything else back. The whole ecosystem plants were my gateway into being a naturalist and environmental educator. And then I realized, wait, it's so much bigger than just plants. So the foundation of everything. Yeah. So it just sets up that like foundation for the rest of the home to build around it. I love to come out here and just sit and enjoy and be, and observe and read out here, bring my lunch out here rather than be stuck in my office inside. I teach people outside and record a lot of videos outside, but you know, there's always that office work that still needs to get done in life. So I'm just grateful that I have this space to kind of escape for a little bit and even bring my laptop out here. I think when it comes to a front grassy lawn, very few people have a relationship with that. Like, it's mostly just for a look. 'cause people drive by. People might use a back lawn, backyard and a lawn and dogs go out to pee and kids play and can have it be like a useful lawn. I don't think all lawns are bad. I think there's a place for them like, you know, a playing field for sports or something, but a front lawn that no one's really ever gonna use. Like Right.

Katelan Cunningham (20:45):

Yeah.

Jason Wise (20:46):

I actually use this space now <laugh> and I actually, I planted a, a lot of the plants to sort of block the road to make it a little bit more zen in here to kind of create a little habitat, wildlife habitat here. And it creates a peaceful space where yes, I get to enjoy my bench here and I like that it swings and I can just sort of chill and bring lunch and read a book and um, connect and do like something like this <laugh>. Yeah. Which I think is kind of unique. Yeah. Um, and I also film videos out here sometimes that I don't have time to make it to a park or somewhere far away really. And I'm like, I still want nature though 'cause I teach about nature. I want to be around nature, you know? Um, so it's a total 180 shift in my relationship.

Jason Wise (21:34):

And, um, what I al also want, you know, you mentioned Robin Wall Kimer with that and I, um, a hero of mine. I've read the book, I read the book once and then I've listened to it again on road trips to like, 'cause because she does the audio book, which is amazing. Yes. It's amazing. Yeah. Um, and just incorporate so many of her teachings into everything that I teach about that kind of having this relationship with the land and I think about environmental education as part of that to connect people to the nature around them. Mm-hmm. And also like, it could be in the neighborhood or in a park, but then, because once we connect to it a little bit more, the more you, the more you get to know it, the more you start to love it. And then when you love something, you protect it. Yeah. And that's my ultimate goal is like, we're gonna, we're gonna connect to it here. And this is just the first step in this process of becoming an advocate for the earth.

Katelan Cunningham (22:27):

Yeah, definitely. A lot of folks might be intimidated not knowing which native plants to pick or like that whole genre. So any advice that you have there. The other thing is, I mentioned before we started talking that I just moved and you actually can't just pop into a Home Depot and find native plants. What is your advice to people when they're looking for native plants as far as where to look, but also how to pick and, and not get too overwhelmed with that process?

Jason Wise (22:54):

How to get an idea of even where to start, what kind of plants is to go to whatever park is near you that is still wilderness <laugh>. Mm.

Katelan Cunningham (23:03):

Yeah.

Jason Wise (23:04):

Uh, now there are parks that are kind of hybrid. Like I live really close to Griffith Park here in LA and around the edges are like golf courses and grassy lawns with picnic tables. And then you get like 50, a hundred feet in and it goes in the trails up into the wild areas. So everything that I chose for this garden are things that I found that I see there. <inaudible> and Laurel Sumac and California Sagebrush and Coast Live Oak. Hmm. So find whatever park still, it may not, it may not be immediately close, but it's a way to see, to look at like, what did this landscape look like before? Yeah. We paved over things and built houses and put those lawns in. Right. And then to find where to get them in California, there's the California Native Plant Society. And then I had friends in like Connecticut for example, ask like, uh, what about here?

Jason Wise (23:49):

I have no idea. And I'm, so I, I looked up, I'm like, just from a Google, look up your state or your region or your area, part of a state, wherever, um, and native plants and native plant society even see if, what kind of organizations are out there advocating for the, that the native plants, the indigenous wildlife, the space for recreating that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. When I started just Googling that around, I'm like, I was finding them everywhere. There's an organization somewhere that is working on this. They probably have, they have a website, they have a list of different types of plants and they will usually have a list of resources in places to go to because yeah. Home Depot, Lowe's, every once in a while I see some of the more popular kind of mm-hmm <affirmative>. There are a couple different sage and uh, that are, that are, that are pop.

Jason Wise (24:33):

But I mean, I, yeah. Yeah. I always go through there when I'm checking, when I'm just need like soil or something or, or like new clippers for the garden. And I'm going by the place to try to avoid big box stores quite frankly. But, and I look through the nursery to see like, is there anything? And once, yeah, once in a while, but you, yeah. You can't count on that. A local nursery will most likely have a better source of that or maybe able to actually know a place to order it from to bring it into the nursery. 'cause they source their things from growers out there. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So they might be like, oh, well, you know, we don't always carry that, but we know someone who, who grows them and we can get them for you to ask, talk to the lo at the local nursery, which is honestly the better place to shop. Anyway.

Katelan Cunningham (25:16):

We had a question from Olivia in Texas and she was asking why more millennials are not getting into native gardening to combat climate change. And I was wondering if you find this to be true and what effective ways have you found to get people involved and interested in this mission whether or not they're millennials?

Jason Wise (25:33):

That's a great question. And I teach young people that are younger than millennials. <laugh>. <laugh>. Yeah. But as, as well as millennials. 'cause I teach all ages. I teach kids all the way through adults. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I feel like most of the people that I teach on my ticketed events, they're nature curious, <laugh>. They're like, I've been hiking and, and I <laugh>. I'm just kind of, I don't know what anything is and I kind of wanna learn more. I think it just, it starts with like asking that question about like, why aren't people making this connection? Let's start, let's start making that connection. It's about conversations like this. Right. In a lot of ways it's about unlearning some of the ways, the things that we learn mm-hmm <affirmative>. Growing up. That our society teaches us this western American consumers culture, that it's easier to have a lawn and just have someone mow it.

Jason Wise (26:20):

Um, even though there's so much more that could be happening with that land and there's so much carbon that could be sequestered from mm-hmm <affirmative>. From having larger plants and so much ecosystem that we could be developing. And so, I mean, I do think that there are, I know a lot of millennials that are into native plants and seeing that connection, but it's not something that's ingrained in our education growing up. It's kind of new. Like, I came into this, this was about 11 years ago when I quit my job. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. My office job to try and work outdoors. And I started volunteering and Yeah. Like kind of just first learned like, oh man, I get the idea of a native plant. But like, started learning about them and how important they are. And, but it takes some time. And, you know, I'm an elder millennial, <laugh>, and I, I, I grew up in a lot of the same way that I think many, many other millennials did, which is like, you know, we had this structure and the system to everything in society, not just with yards and plants, but with capitalism and Yeah.

Jason Wise (27:17):

Patriarchy and all kinds of different things that we're all taking the time now to slowly unravel all of that, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because it's not serving us the right way. Right. It's not serving the environment. And so, I mean, I see that as a, it's a process and it takes some time and it just takes getting out there and getting, getting curious and taking classes like, and going and talking to the nursery person going on social media or YouTube and there's so many different people talking about these and just learning, start there with that curiosity, with that even that question in the first place, um, that can kind of spark the next many other questions and answers and experiences to go, to go further. 'cause that's, I think anything that we're working on with the environment or systems that are not functioning the best way that they could, it just takes like that first step and doing a little bit at a time and keep and growing from there. Like, you don't have to do a full front lawn.

Katelan Cunningham (28:11):

When we're choosing native plants, we know that they require less maintenance and they provide support for wildlife. But one thing that fascinated me is during or after the LA fires, you posted this video about how certain plants can actually help protect us from fires. Or at least that some plants will fuel a fire more than others. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Jason Wise (28:31):

Yeah, I mean, so native plants in California evolved with fire <laugh>, um, including the, especially all throughout the state. Um, in northern California, in the forest, you have a lot more, um, natural fires that happen from, happen from lightning. So they had it that way. Southern California doesn't really get lightning in the dry parts of the year. And the fire that they are accustomed to here that they evolved with are cultural burns by, you know, the indigenous rightful caretakers of this land, right. Who are caretaking the land by creating fire. And that like helps you clear out the brush of certain plants to help plants start over to grow back stronger, sometimes from their roots, sometimes to cultivate certain plants, specifically to keep smaller trees at the edge of meadows burned out so that you have the, the grasses in those meadows to use for basket tree.

Jason Wise (29:21):

All kinds of reasons. But they evolved with that, with that fire. Some of them are part of to help out with the fire, a little bit of, bit of oil to, to sort of encourage it along and move it along. Mm. They're all fire resilience, meaning that they know how to handle being burned. A normal kind of cultural burn that's like a low easygoing fire that they set intentionally during a time of year when they know that it's not gonna be harmful or get outta control. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and then plants were like, we saw around, uh, the Eaton fire in Altadena, um, that I, a number of the plants just a couple weeks later were already growing sprouts out from the roots. So just showing that they know how to handle this. Right. Other plants are, along with being fire resilient, are fire resistant, so they hold moisture even through this dry part of the year.

Jason Wise (30:12):

So the video I made was to give people an idea of like, here's some plants that you should have in your yard that actually can help protect your house from a fire. And I'll use the example, um, I'm looking at over here, my coast Live Oak. I know multiple examples of Coast live oaks in Altadena. The, the folks at Altadena Green, um, showed me these oak trees that basically shield the, the house. Wow. Whatever was upwind. The, the embers are maybe blowing this way. If the house is on this side, it shielded that house. And then o in certain areas, the only part of the oak coastline oak that burned was the side that was against the house. Like the house caught on fire and then singed the, the, the tree. So it kind of went like backwards than you would actually think because they just have these really thick, um, leafy, they hold water.

Jason Wise (30:59):

They, they shouldn't send a big taproot down into the soil to access the groundwater once they're mature enough. And so these big couple hundred year old oaks in Altadena and the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains here, not only survive the fire, but in many cases protected the home. So that's not true for every native plant, but just to show you that there's, plants have a part in protecting us and helping us. And there's been some proposals in California about clearing all, all plants away from the house for a certain degree. And I think that it, that needs to be more nuanced because not all plants are as flammable as others. So we can use nature to our advantage to help with, you know, the climate is changing, we're gonna have more dry periods that might lead to that are already showing an increase of fires, you know, all across the west. Bringing back in nature is not just about cooling down the land around here and creating oxygen and cleaning the air, but also can be another way of helping us in the, in when it comes to fire regimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Katelan Cunningham (31:55):

<laugh>, that's incredible. That's incredible. And I love that, you know, you said like plants have been adapting to this for far longer than humans have, so they're really good at Right. Fire resistance or even if you live in a place that that tends to flood, you know, uh, or, or a road. There's all these kinds of plants that can help us with that. Yeah. Better than our infrastructure even can. Yeah. Right.

Jason Wise (32:15):

Plants help with preventing erosion. So my, this the lawn here, I'm just doing a little tour here, but the lawn, it kind of slopes down behind me here. This was like a sloping lawn down towards the road over there. So I have plants that are lining up along the slope here. Wow. That then protect, kind of block it off as a shrub, almost keep the hillside in place as well as flowering at different times of the year year. And some of them creating amazing scent when the, the sun is on this warming, I just walk out the front door and I'm like, oh, I'm hit by the California sagebrush, my favorite plant, <laugh>. There's so many benefits for climate change, I guess regarding fires and flooding and that kind of thing. And it retains more water into the ground on top of that, the whole habitat ecosystem for the animals and the insects and people. 'cause we're part of nature too, right? We're part of this habitat and ecosystem. Yes. We belong in spaces like this as well, not just on sterile grassy lawns. <laugh>.

Katelan Cunningham (33:13):

I love that. Well, thank you so much for, for coming on the show and for, for all your tours. I've gone on a couple. If folks live in here in Southern California, they should definitely look you up and go on your website, go on your Insta and see the next classes that you're teaching.

Jason Wise (33:26):

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. And um, anytime. I love talking about this. Thanks for coming on the walks too. I think that's the in-person connections are the best.

Katelan Cunningham (33:35):

Yes. No, they're great. <laugh>, I, I went on the eat the weeds one and it was so fun and we, you had us, we like made a salad at the end with the weeds that we got. It was so cool. <laugh>.

Jason Wise (33:43):

Right. I love that. I love that. As you know, that's a form of ecosystem restoration right there. Yep.

Katelan Cunningham (33:48):

Yep. Eating the divisive weeds. Well, thank you so much for all that you do and for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Jason Wise (33:53):

Yeah, thanks for having me. Bye. <laugh>,

Katelan Cunningham (34:02):

What if we thought of the plants in our yards, not strictly as aesthetic contributions to our home, but as reciprocal contributions to our neighborhood nature?

Katelan Cunningham (34:14):

Last season we had the great joy of hearing from Robin Wall Kimer and I talk to her a lot about biodiversity and this feeling of belonging to the land. It's a really uplifting, listen, if you haven't heard it, give it a go. But when I reflect on what we're losing with lawns, what's interesting is that it's not just about this ecological loss of planting invasive mono crops, but the money loss too. Who are we paying to keep our lawns lush and green? I called up commons founders and Charlie St. Paul to help us follow the money. Hey Charlie, welcome back.

Sanchali Seth Pal (34:51):

Hey Katelan. Great to be back.

Katelan Cunningham (34:54):

So there are lawns like mine out there that are quite brown <laugh> and getting very little maintenance or pesticide fertilizers, but the sort of sought after lawn, right? Is this green lush mode lawn?

Sanchali Seth Pal (35:10):

Yeah, for sure. Americans are spending hundreds to thousands of dollars every year and many, many hours tending their lawns. Of course, investing in our outdoor spaces is a good thing.

Katelan Cunningham (35:23):

Totally. But if you're spending that money on stuff like chemicals and fuel to run lawnmowers, I start to get a little bit nervous.

Sanchali Seth Pal (35:32):

Exactly. Someone is profiting off of this, that's for sure. It is not an accident that Americans feel perfectly manicured. Lawns are a point of pride and what's more American than capitalism? So let's follow the money. We looked into some of the key consumer lawn industries. We found that Scot's Miracle grow leads away and pesticides, fertilizers, and seed and sod. You've probably seen their green bottles at the store. According to the s and p 500. Scott's controls over 50% of most consumer home and garden markets across these areas. It's a nearly $3.7 billion company. Their CEO's name is Jim Hague Dorn, and he called SCOs the King Kong of Lawn and Garden

Katelan Cunningham (36:18):

<laugh>. Okay. That is kind of funny. But it's also ironic because I think that if King Kong were real, he would actually hate their products. <laugh>.

Sanchali Seth Pal (36:28):

I mean, yes. I don't know what he was going for there, but basically he calls fertilizers the grow side of their business and he calls pesticides the kill side of the business. Hmm. Across both sides. The entire product line is basically built on fossil fuel derived inputs. There's a reason for that. Fossil fuels are cheap. The industry receives tens of billions of dollars in annual government subsidies. If fossil fuels were not subsidized, let alone if they reflected the true economic health and environmental harms of fossil fuels, they would be way more expensive. So Scott's is out here just maximizing profit, but they're doing so at the expense of the health of our children or communities and our ecosystems.

Katelan Cunningham (37:11):

And it's not like they have to have to do it this way. It's not like they don't have the money or resources to invest in more natural ingredients or practices.

Sanchali Seth Pal (37:21):

Absolutely. I mean, if anyone had the money to start investing in research or in improving the quality of their natural ingredients, it would be Scot's. Yeah. But we don't even really know what natural means. There's no real definition of it. They're just throwing that word around. So Scott's miracle grow has actually gotten into some trouble for this. There have been multiple lawsuits against its labels. Sometimes they call their products natural, sustainable or organic, but in fact they aren't. And they even contain things like PFAS.

Katelan Cunningham (37:49):

That's crazy. And it's not just in the fertilizers and pesticides, but the soils too.

Sanchali Seth Pal (37:54):

Yes. Basically fossil fuels are the foundation of all of their products. Whether that's soil, fertilizers, insecticides, weed killer, you name it. Oh, and these products aren't just getting Scott in trouble for false representation. They're also getting them in trouble for really serious health implications. For example, Scott's is a distributor of Roundup, which you might have heard of. It has paid out billions of dollars over $11 billion just in lawsuits. That Roundup causes cancer.

Katelan Cunningham (38:24):

That is a massive gargantuan, impossible to imagine amount of money

Sanchali Seth Pal (38:29):

And it doesn't stop there. I mean, there's a ton of recent studies that are linking the chemicals in our lawns to all kinds of serious health effects of the 40 most commonly used pesticides in our lawns. 32 are linked to liver and kidney damage. 26 are linked to cancer, 24 to endocrine disruption and neurotoxicity, 21 to reproductive effects and 12 to birth defects. In fact, children and pets have the greatest exposure to grass and therefore the most potential for adverse reaction.

Katelan Cunningham (39:01):

Wow. That is like some really scary stuff.

Sanchali Seth Pal (39:04):

It's so scary and it's really hitting home. I think in my own little neighborhood in Oakland right now, there's this big campaign to stop pesticide use at a local golf course because there's a study that came out linking it to an over a hundred x increase in likelihood of causing Parkinson's disease. And that's for people who live within a one mile radius. It's not just your own lawn that it affects, it affects the people around you too.

Katelan Cunningham (39:27):

What about the effects of the grasses themselves on the local ecosystems? Do we know more about that?

Sanchali Seth Pal (39:32):

Yeah, so Scott's is really relevant here too. They actually sell over a third of the consumer grass seed in the us. The most common grasses they sell are Kentucky bluegrass, perennial ryegrass, tall fescue. None of these are actually native to North America despite the names. And they also have a real grass supervi in their stock.

Katelan Cunningham (39:54):

What is a grass supervi

Sanchali Seth Pal (39:57):

<laugh>. They created this genetically modified creeping bent grass, call it a grass supervi specifically for use on golf courses. It was engineered to be resistant to Roundup so they could have golf courses basically spray roundup but not kill the un killable grass. So when this un killable grass escaped the Idaho lab and rambled over the border into Oregon, it created a huge problem. Scots was fined half a million dollars, which was the maximum fine allowable by the USDA.

Katelan Cunningham (40:31):

That honestly sounds like a problem that can't be fixed with a half a million dollar check.

Sanchali Seth Pal (40:35):

I mean, no, they definitely can't. It Scott's got off way too easy and the problem still exists. They weren't required to pay for the cleanups. So the grass is still out there wreaking havoc. It's clogging irrigation canals. It has the potential to contaminate non GMO crops and even cause the extinction of endangered species. It's been almost a decade and people don't think they can kill it.

Katelan Cunningham (40:57):

It seems ironic that this huge lawn and garden company would exist to kill or grow only specific plants and at any cost it seems that comes at the cost of native plants and any animal, including us, including humans.

Sanchali Seth Pal (41:15):

Yeah. And it's hard to overemphasize just how closely linked these products are to the fossil fuel industry. For instance, ammonia is one of the primary components of fertilizer and it's a hundred percent derived from fossil fuels, at least all of the ammonia in the United States. Sulfur is another really common compound in fertilizers and soils. It's mostly a byproduct from refining oil and natural gas. So the tie between these products in the fossil fuel industry is extremely close.

Katelan Cunningham (41:42):

What makes this more frustrating to me is that if you go into any big box store in the lawn and garden section, if you find no other brand, you're probably gonna at least see Scott's Miracle grow there. I did this the other day. I went and I was looking for some soil that was the only option. But this brand obviously has a lot of nasty stuff. They're not the only ones, right? But they are really, really big. How can we avoid Scot's and other fossil fuel derived gardening products, especially from these really huge brands.

Sanchali Seth Pal (42:11):

So if you are looking for alternatives, the best choice is to opt for a native alternative to grass. You might have to adjust to a different texture and color than you've been conditioned to. Um, but it can look really beautiful and it can still feel really soft underfoot.

Katelan Cunningham (42:28):

There are some nice clovers out there. I've seen people use crawling time. You could always also replace the grass with other native plants too. That could be nice.

Sanchali Seth Pal (42:37):

Absolutely. It definitely takes thought and intention, but it's completely possible. And one of the benefits of using these native alternatives is that you shouldn't need fertilizers or pesticides, which should hopefully save you money. I think it's time to say you gotta kill your lawn before it kills you.

Katelan Cunningham (42:54):

That is so true. And what a great note to end on. <laugh>. Thank you so much for unpacking all of that for us.

Sanchali Seth Pal (43:01):

Of course. Anytime.

Katelan Cunningham (43:07):

Picture your classic American residential street, two rows of houses separated by islands of cement and asphalt. But this time in front of the houses, you don't see squares of flat green turf. But instead, fields of native wild flowers buzzing with bees and shrouded by butterflies. You see fruit trees abundant with fruit, plant beds burgeoning with lettuce and herbs and rows of vegetables, desert gardens providing shade and respite and hot summer days for little critters, native shrubs providing shelter and food for the birds.

Katelan Cunningham (43:46):

When it comes to taking care of our local ecosystems, our water and our air, it turns out that our lawns, no matter how big or how small, are a powerful, powerful force. They're an opportunity to opt out of the fossil fuel industry. They're a way to grow food for ourselves and the critters we share our space with. With just a few plants, we can foster habitats and help struggling species flourish. It's amazing. And this re-imagination of a front lawn can be strikingly beautiful. Don't for one second think that when you abandon a green turf square, you have to sacrifice on aesthetics because what's more beautiful than a butterfly, blessed wildflower meadow or a native cactus filled with fruit or bushels of front yard tomatoes,

Katelan Cunningham (44:32):

You can replant and reimagine your lawn right now. And by the end of the summer, you will have been visited by all kinds of wildlife. You'll have saved money on water and fertilizer and pesticides, and hopefully you will have saved time mowing your lawn. Growing native plants food and pollinator friendly flowers is a rewarding mission that gives back tenfold as we've heard from all of you. If you're looking for inspiration and resources and motivation to rewild your lawn, look no further than our Instagram. We've shared some photos of wildlife gardens from our community all around the world. Speaking of community, it was so great hearing the triumphs and tribulations of converting your own lawns. Today on the show you heard from

[credits]

Katelan Cunningham (45:26):

Don't go just yet because in 10 seconds you're going to hear our community classifieds, where folks in our community shout out local orgs that need your help. But first you need to know that this episode was edited and engineered by Evan Goodchild. It was written and produced by me, Kaitlyn Cunningham, with research support from McKenna Mc Bridy. Season five is off to a great start if I do say so myself, can't wait to catch you back here next week. See you then.

Grace Kinney-Broderick (45:53):

My name is Grace and I've been involved with the Chicago Bird Alliance in Chicago, Illinois. This is a chapter of the National Audubon Society that covers the Chicago land area and advocates for birds and bird friendly policies and initiatives. Their actions often engage the community through programs and experiences.

Camila Bronson (46:11):

My name is Camila and I'm building Eco House in Angelina, Santa Catina, Brazil. It is an off grid regenerative retreat ecosystem in the mountains of Santa Catarina, Brazil. It's a place where nature is not aesthetic. It is the operating system. We're looking for long horizon relationships only people seriously considering relocation to Southern Brazil who value sovereignty, beauty as discipline and earned community over ideological communes. We are also looking for individuals or couples seeking a second home or retirement refuge that functions as a regenerative hobby state. And also we are opening for volunteers that are ready to contribute meaningfully to the land through the permaculture principles, which includes food, forest, trail systems, native planting and closed loop infrastructure. So you don't come to Eco House to consume the land, you come to participate in it.

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