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We see greenwashing everywhere — from product labels to fossil fuel ads. But it goes even deeper than that. Greenwashing gets in the way of climate policy changes too!

On this episode of Second Nature, we’re hearing how our community dodges greenwashing, talking through 4 questions to ask yourself to see if a brand is greenwashing, and we’re talking to Dr. Mara Einstein about how greenwashing has evolved with the rise of social media.  

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Episode Credits

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• Listener contributions: Obehi Ehimen, Louka, Leïla Six, Nicole Collins, Verity, Danielle  Bird [s2], Bo Meisl, Kenzie Rattray, Grace Hebert‍
• Episode expert: Dr. Mara Einstein
• Editing and engineering: Evan Goodchild‍‍
• Hosting and production: Katelan Cunningham

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Citations and Further Reading

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• Shein fined €1m in Italy for misleading environmental claims about products
• Environmental Sustainability at JP Morgan Chase
• JPMorgan Chase 2024 Sustainability Report
• Banking on Climate Chaos: Fossil Fuel Finance Report 2025
• Avoid These Brands on the Dirty Money List

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Full Transcript

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Katelan Cunningham (00:00):

Hello and welcome to Second Nature, a podcast from Commons where we talk to people about how they're living sustainably in an unsustainable world. Hundreds of thousands of people use the Commons app to save money and save the planet. It's basically like having a money smart greenwashing detector right in your phone. And today on the show, we're talking greenwashing. As we all know, fossil fuels are one of the leading drivers of climate change. So it seems fair to me to think of fossil fuel companies like the villains, but if you watch one of their ads, you'd never know it. Listen to this 2021 TV spot from Chevron.

Speaker 2 (00:49):

At Chevron, we're lowering the carbon emissions intensity of our operations, investing in lower carbon technologies and exploring renewable fuels of the future. We work hard to care for the homes we love, but it's only human to protect the one we share.

Katelan Cunningham (01:10):

Despite how altruistic Chevron sounds in this beautiful black and white ad between 2010 and 2018, the company only dedicated 0.2% of its long-term investments to low carbon energy, and it's falling very short on the low carbon goals that it set out to hit, which means that that ad, these goals. These are prime examples of greenwashing, a marketing tactic used by companies to make us think that they're doing good enough for the planet so that we feel good when we shop there. And of course, it's not just fossil fuel companies. We see greenwashing on a practically every shelf, in every aisle of every store.

Katelan Cunningham (01:55):

The green packaging or the little leaf shaped sticker that says natural or eco-friendly or green with little to no information about what's behind these claims, or if these efforts come anywhere close to offsetting the company's overall impact, and it goes deeper than just adds. And the labels on products, companies, lies and deception can distract us from really bad stuff that they're doing on a big scale like making investments to block nationwide policy changes. I'm Caitlyn Cunningham, and on this episode we're diving into the world of greenwashing to understand just how deep it goes, how to identify it, how to call it out when we see it, and how to find the brands that are actually walking the walk. Let's get into it.

Katelan Cunningham (02:43):

A lot of companies have gotten really good at greenwashing, so it can be tricky to identify, but once you get started, it gets a lot easier with practice. I think the best way to catch greenwashing for me is to ask myself questions about the brand. So one of the questions I ask is, how is this brand investing in sustainability? This sounds super obvious, which makes it a great place to start, and it's one of the first questions that we ask ourselves when we're rating brands at Commons. If you go to the brand's website and you can't find a sustainability page or a report with any data or goals or initiatives, that's a bad sign, especially for big brands that have the resources to invest in sustainability. You may have heard this referred to as Green Hushing, when companies don't publish any information about their sustainability efforts, so they're able to avoid any accountability whatsoever. One of the big brands that's guilty of this is Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's has over 600 stores that rake in billions of dollars per year, but no sustainability report to be found. Now, if you do see sustainability claims, especially vague ones on a product label or description, you might wanna ask yourself this question, what does this claim mean exactly? This question prompts a little bit of digging, and you may find that claims about a product being eco-friendly or green are exaggerations overly vague or completely unfounded, AKA lies.

Katelan Cunningham (04:17):

Let's get specific with it. She and released a quote unquote sustainable collection, which it called Evolution by Design. The brand claimed that this collection was part of some recycling or circularity efforts, but there wasn't any exact info on how they were doing these things.

Katelan Cunningham (04:36):

Of course, with an ultra fast fashion brand like Sheen, this isn't surprising, which brings up another tip. If you see lofty claims from companies whose entire business models rely on over consumption and exploitation, it's best to come into those with an extreme amount of skepticism. In this case, she and Shadiness was actually found to be illegal. They were fined 1 million euros. Another question to ask yourself if you see a big flashy sustainability effort is, is this a distraction? Often companies make sustainability efforts with one hand, but with a hand behind their back. They're getting into some bad stuff and you might think, Hey, at least they're doing some good stuff. But I like to think of it with this analogy. Okay, stick with me. Imagine that your neighbor throws all their trash all over the sidewalk Every day they get a bad rap on the block.

Katelan Cunningham (05:28):

Everyone shuns them. They don't get invited to cookout, so they're bummed out, but they don't stop throwing their trash on the sidewalk. Instead, they just pick up a little bit of it here and there, and then they have the audacity to put a sign in their lawn that says, we keep our neighborhood clean. So they're bragging about the solution to the problem when they are in fact the problem. That's what I think about when I hear about a company like JP Morgan Chase and its goal to give $1 trillion to sustainable development between 2021 and 2030. It's a bright and shiny distraction from the fact that JP Morgan Chase is consistently the biggest fossil fuel funding bank since 2021. Chase has given $100 billion to low carbon energy projects and sustainable transportation. Great, we love to see it, but in the same span of time, it's given over $190 billion to fossil fuels.

Katelan Cunningham (06:25):

So they're giving nearly twice as much money to the bad guys as they are to the good guys. One more question I like to ask is, are they keeping their promises? There are so many sustainability goals on companies websites that sound great, but in reality, these companies are coming nowhere close to meeting their deadlines. One example our team found is Under Armour, the clothing company, it's committed to reduce its emissions by 30% by 2030, but since it made this goal in 2018, their emissions have only gone up. It also committed to using a hundred percent renewable energy by 2030. They say they're on track to meet this goal, but they have five years left and they're only at 6%. Flashy promises mean nothing without updates on these goals. They also mean nothing if the company abandons them or extends them time and time again. I'm so tired of seeing press releases from companies about how they're going to do something like Call me when it's done, or at least when you've started making some sort of effort in earnest, right? So playing it back, our four questions are, how is this brand investing in sustainability? What does this claim mean exactly? Is this sustainability effort a distraction? And finally, are they keeping their promises? Now, if you're trying to de greenwash your entire shopping list, I know this is a lot to think about. Start with the stuff you buy most often or maybe some of your biggest purchases. It's a process.

New Speaker (07:54):

Remember to be patient with yourself and you'll get better with it over time.

Louka (08:01):

I'd say I'm not really confident in my ability to detect greenwashing.

Verity Jones (08:06):

A lot of the consumers don't realize it's not true and it's not made sustainably.

Obehi Ehimen (08:11):

It's getting harder to differentiate whether a company actually cares or if they just want money.

Bo (08:19):

I mean, my biggest fear is that greenwashing perpetuates this great myth, this notion that bigger is better, that sustainable solutions can come from business as usual.

Kenzie Rattray (08:34):

I'm mainly thinking of Bank of America here. They sent out these letters saying like, Hey, we are doing something about climate change. We invested $7 million into clean energy. They had also invested, I think $3 billion in fossil fuels. So they lie, they manipulate and they trick us, and it makes me really mad.

Leïla Six (08:59):

I've spent years learning about the dark side of so many industries, so I would say I'm confident in my ability to detect greenwashing, but there's innovation all the time, both in marketing, which may make it harder to spot greenwashing and in industries, maybe something I put in the box of do not buy is actually okay to buy. Now,

Grace Hebert  (09:17):

I've supported companies with little to no greenwashing at first, but watch as they start to abandon those values over time.

Leïla Six (09:24):

So it's important to stay updated.

Grace Hebert  (09:27):

I generally assume that most companies are greenwashing to some extent. So I always check if the branding labels and ingredients align

Danielle Bird (09:35):

And look at what materials are used and try to find out more about the supply chain. Who has made the item, where does it come from, et cetera.

Grace Hebert  (09:42):

Is the company saying it's an eco minded company with natural sustainable ingredients, but the product and packaging is made of plastic and their sustainability report is non-existent? It's probably greenwashed.

Danielle Bird (09:55):

I look for the buzzwords. Eco-friendly, a hundred percent sustainable, all natural, biodegradable, cruelty free.

Grace Hebert  (10:05):

Does a shirt come in? A branded fabric you've never heard of like butter lucks? They may be trying to hide the fact that it's blended with synthetics.

Danielle Bird (10:14):

I also look for an overuse of the color green.

Grace Hebert  (10:18):

The jeans say that they're cotton, but they actually have 25% polyester. They might be trying to make that cheaper. Are they encouraging you to buy into trends or overconsume? Probably not a very good sign.

Danielle Bird (10:31):

Greenwashing definitely keeps me from shopping at a brand or buying a product because why would I want to purchase something from a company that is being a posr?

Katelan Cunningham (10:42):

That's why

Grace Hebert  (10:43):

It's always important to check the materials and think critically voting with your dollars cannot be underestimated. Just look at the recent boycotts at

Katelan Cunningham (10:51):

Target.

Katelan Cunningham (10:58):

Companies that have a really massive influence, like Coca-Cola sized companies, target size companies, their greenwashing can go beyond their products and what they say about their products to actually affecting policy changes. Many companies fund or influence climate obstructive advocacy organizations, and those advocacy organizations use that money to lobby for policy objectives. Companies may also employ lobbyists who profit off the fossil fuel industry, which is another red flag. And you may be wondering, Caitlin, how am I ever supposed to figure out that kind of information? The Commons team does research on that too. We call it the Dirty Money List, and it's a list of consumer brands that are holding back government climate action for the sake of profits. Spoiler alert, Amazon and Target are both on the list. There's a link to the full list in the show notes, and you can find this info anywhere in the app whenever you search a brand.

Katelan Cunningham (11:57):

When it comes to the sustainability efforts of these behemoth decades old corporations. I think it's a classic case of if they wanted to, they would, and unfortunately it doesn't seem like many of them want to. No one knows this better than Dr. Me Einstein. She has spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world's biggest brands. She's a tenured professor of media studies at CU UNY, and she's dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. I called her up to understand what kind of marketing forces are at play in greenwashing and how these strategies have evolved over the years. Hi, Mera. Thanks for coming on the show.

Dr. Mara Einstein (12:45):

Oh, it's my pleasure. I can't wait to talk about this. I'm very excited.

Katelan Cunningham (12:49):

<laugh>. Me too. I wanted to start out by just kind of like grounding a little bit. So shoppers have always cared about what's in our products, how well they work, but we haven't always cared about things like the political parties that the companies were buying from donate to, or even how they treat their employees, or if this company's promoting over consumption. When did we start to see this shift where consumers are carrying more or at least as much about what goes on behind the product as the actual product itself?

Dr. Mara Einstein (13:18):

This really started in the early two thousands, particularly in relationship to millennials, because that was the generation that really started to care about what a brand represented, because what we began to see is a pullback in terms of the importance of cultural and social institutions as part of our identity. So instead of belonging to a church, we had to turn to something else in order to be able to help create our identity. And the market came in to fill that void. And so we didn't just buy ice cream, we bought Ben and Jerry's. We didn't just buy shoes, we bought Tom's. And so it became important as consumers to think in terms of what does that brand stand for? Because my using that brand communicates to people who I am. If you think about it now, Tesla. Yeah. You know, what does it mean to be driving a Tesla?

Dr. Mara Einstein (14:17):

Now, for a lot of people, it meant I'm ahead of the curve. I care about the environment. I'm driving an electrical car. Then what it became was I'm tied to Elon Musk, and all of a sudden people started taking that symbol off the car so people couldn't recognize that it was a Tesla. And I think that's such a great example for people to understand how much, what a brand is and what it says communicates about us. Every brand has a story. So if you're thinking about Nike, it's the best of athleticism. You're thinking about Apple, it's the cutting edge of technology and think different, right? That used to be their tagline. So that is what you want to have happen, is that the consumer will see that logo and then all of that mythology is then automatically brought into the consumer's mind. You know? It's almost like the cross in the church, right? Yeah. It's the same thing. It works exactly the same way.

Katelan Cunningham (15:18):

It's one symbol that tells someone a lot about you.

Dr. Mara Einstein (15:20):

Exactly. Right.

Katelan Cunningham (15:22):

In your book, hoodwinked, you talk about how marketers use the same tactics as cults, and it reminded me of this cult-like following of folks buying those Stanley cups, the colorful different tumblers. And I'm reminded about a line in your book, you said, when brands become this important purchase, decisions become less mindful. And I wondered if you could say a little bit more about why that happens.

Dr. Mara Einstein (15:45):

Yeah, sure. When we start to engage with the technology, we start to get more and more anxious. And as we get more and more anxious, we then spend more time on the technology, and then we start doom scrolling. And then ultimately that anxiety needs to be released. And the way it gets released is through buying something. It's about selling advertising. We pick up our phones. I think the number is 150 times a day. Wow. And that leaves very little space in your life to be thinking about your thoughts and not the thoughts of someone else. And so what happens is that as we start to make these brands part of who we are, and you use this example of Stanley, as soon as we see it, we're like, oh, that's part of me. Oh, they have a new one. Oh, let me get that. That not only says that you are connected to that brand, it says, oh, you're on the cutting edge, and you know what the hottest, coolest thing is as well, which is also what buying something new says about us. Yeah. You know, in terms of the whole cult process, they're looking for vulnerable people. And this is true of marketing since the beginning of time. Hmm. Because there's no ad that's gonna say, Caitlin, you're fabulous just the way you are. Because if I said that to you, you would never buy my product <laugh>. But if I said, you have halitosis, then you have to go out and buy Listerine, <laugh>, <laugh>. Yeah,

Katelan Cunningham (17:09):

Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Mara Einstein (17:09):

Yeah. And so what advertising always wants to do is say, you know, your hair's not right. You are driving the wrong car, whatever it is, in order to get you to come along and buy whatever it is they want to buy. And then what happens online in a way that didn't happen in so-called legacy media like television and print, is that people could surround you and tell you how great you were for buying that product. You know, think about it, influencer doing a haul, either from something like Tumu or Shan, or even some of these fitness influencers do halls from like Gym Shark. Mm. And then they have an affiliate link. So they're trying to sell you something, but you're seeing them put on thing after thing, after thing after thing. And then if you buy from them, it's like, oh, I see you out there. Remember it just like, uh, home Shopping Network used to do that. Oh yeah. Uhhuh thing. And so influencers do that online. And so you feel like you're part of this community. And that's what the hope is with brand cults, is that you will be part of this community and that community pushes you to continue to be part of that group, which means they're pushing you to buy more of that product.

Katelan Cunningham (18:20):

And that feel good feeling is even more amplified and sort of the world of greenwashing, I think, and sort of greenwashing and purpose washing. 'cause like not only should you feel good because you're part of this community, you bought this thing that you look so good in, but also you're doing good for the world. Right?

Dr. Mara Einstein (18:37):

Right. You know, whether we're talking about greenwashing or purpose washing, the whole point of connecting a charity to a brand is to ultimately make you feel good about spending money. You know, if you're buying the Stanley Cup, you know, there's the whole sustainability idea is the idea that you're saving a bunch of plastic bottles from being used by using their product. Right. But if you buy 40 of them, have you really ultimately called the planet for hoodwinked? I was looking at a lot of multi-level marketing companies. Multi-level marketing is the ultimate consumer cult. Almost every MLMI looked at and multi-level marketing companies are legalized pyramids schemes. For those who don't know, they all had some kind of cause connected to them. And some of them have sustainability. And the one that really made me chuckle was, Tupperware Tupperware's cause was sustainability. And you know, much like Stanley Cups, you would think, oh yeah, that makes sense. You know, if you're using a plastic container, then you are not, you know, using plastic wrap or whatever it is. But the problem is, is we're still caught in this consumerist mindset where everything's gotta be growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. And so even while maybe you're selling something that could be seen as good for the environment, on the other hand, if you're selling so much of it that you're offsetting whatever good you're doing, you end up at zero.

Katelan Cunningham (20:06):

Yeah.

Dr. Mara Einstein (20:06):

Or worse.

Katelan Cunningham (20:08):

Are there any brands in your mind that are like poster children of greenwashing or types of greenwashing that you see the most often?

Dr. Mara Einstein (20:15):

One of the worst examples that I think I've ever seen, and this has to do with native advertising or what's known as custom native advertising or branded journalism. Native advertising are ads that appear in your social media feeds that look like anything else that would be there. Branded journalism is when it looks like an article in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, but it's actually paid for one of those. And I believe it was Chevron did a branded journalism piece in the New York Times and it was all about sustainability. Oh boy. Yeah. Yeah. And so for an oil company to be doing a branded journalism piece, 'cause it looks like it's an article, that's what's so terrible about it. So unless somebody actually looks in the URL and sees at the end that it says paid post or that sometimes underneath the title of the article, it may say something like, you know, sponsored by X, Y, Z oil company. That to me is the worst one that I've ever seen. Yeah.

Katelan Cunningham (21:23):

Because it's like they have so much money and so they can even say like, Hey, we put a few million dollars into this thing, or a billion dollars into this thing, and it feels like, oh my gosh, that's so great. But then you're distracted from the billions of other dollars that they're spending to do one of the main things that are driving, you know, climate change, which is burning fossil fuels. Right.

Dr. Mara Einstein (21:44):

Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Katelan Cunningham (21:45):

It makes me think of this one statement though. We've gotten some questions and comments from our listeners about greenwashing and someone named Vanessa from RTI Janero. She said, greenwashing and social washing are even more harmful than doing nothing. And I wondered if you agree with that. To what extent is lying about your brand's efforts worse than not making the effort at all?

Dr. Mara Einstein (22:08):

Yes, I absolutely agree with that. So I wrote this book, compassion Inc. In 2012 mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's all about cause marketing and corporate social work responsibility and how to do that. Right. And most companies still do it completely wrong because the way to do cause marketing is that you need to have that cause be embedded into the DNA of the company. Right. And if it's not, you're really doing it halfway. And what we have seen most recently is when companies do it halfway, that consumers call them out on this. And a, a great example right now, of course, is Target. Target for years suggested that they cared about DEI. And as soon as that became a problem from them in relationship to administration, they hightailed it away from that. And look what it did to that company. I mean, they've lost billions and billions of dollars.

Dr. Mara Einstein (23:05):

The CEO had to take a huge cut in pay and now they're trying to make their way back. But I, I don't think that they can, not to where they were before, and the company needs to do something that is part of who they are. If you're a food company, try to eliminate poverty and starvation. Right. You know, if you're a clothing company, can you produce clothing that is inexpensive, but it's not fast fashion. You know, that's something you can do, but it's gotta be part of who you are. And it is interesting to me that after all these years, there still aren't really good examples of companies that do it. Right? Mm. The primary one is Ben and Jerry's up until recently, and we'll see what happens and whether or not they can buy the company back from Unilever. But being these two hippies that started this company, they have always cared about everything from politics to the environment.

Dr. Mara Einstein (24:00):

And the same thing is true for a company like Lush. Lush too is is environmentally conscious. Yep. The example I often talk about is that after Francis Hagan came out as the whistleblower against Meta, she's known as the Facebook whistleblower. She talked about Instagram and how Instagram was bad for teenage girls. And Lush went up right away and pulled their account off of that platform. And three years later, they still don't have anything up there in terms of sales. They have something up there that says what the Zuck, and it has all kinds of statistics about how bad Instagram is for teenage girls. And so they are true to who they are, but there's very few companies that do that. But let me give you one more example of, yeah. Uh, washing company. 'cause this is also a good one, H and M. So h and m, you know, did quite a bit of a stance in terms of saying that they were environmentally conscious and they came out within an environmentally conscious line, but try to find it if you go into the store.

Dr. Mara Einstein (25:04):

Right. I mean, it's, it's so hidden. And the other part of it is that they have bins in the store where you can bring clothing in and they will recycle it, and you can get 15% off on anything that you buy in the store. Every semester. I ask my students if they know about it, right? Because the, these are full on the target audience for h and m, right? So it's 18 to 25, none of them know about it. So if you do it, but nobody knows you're doing it, are you really doing anything? And the answer to that is no, no, you're not. That's a marketing thing that's getting people to think you're doing something good when you aren't really doing anything. And I think that's worse than not doing anything at that. Mm-hmm

Katelan Cunningham (25:48):

<affirmative>. In your book, you talk about the anxiety economy and you had this great line, which is anxiety is not a bug, it's the feature. And I wondered if you could share more about your interpretation of the anxiety economy and how it intersects with, and maybe feeds on our climate anxiety. Because I feel like people are looking for any opportunity, right? They're like, whether it's like, oh, I'm buying paper towels, let me buy the greenest paper towels I can buy. Or whether it's let me shop at h and m because I can bring back my clothes. We're looking for those like easy wins. Right? And, and I'm just wondering like how you kind of see the climate anxiety and anxiety economy sort of relationship.

Dr. Mara Einstein (26:27):

I think it all does. Part of what I'm talking about in terms of the anxiety economy is that economists talk about, particularly in this age of social media, that we are living in an attention economy and that these sites want us to spend more and more time on them. And they've done a really good job doing that. But what I say is it's not an attention economy, it's an anxiety economy because they do want to get us all anxious so that we will spend more and more time on social media. And what's interesting to me is just a couple of days ago, the Oxford Dictionary made rage bait, the word of the Year. Wow. I did not know that. Yes. And so it's the technology and the content that's working together to get us all anxious. So the technology gets us anxious because there's no stopping point.

Dr. Mara Einstein (27:19):

There's no natural stopping point in social media. You read a book, you're done, you close it, bye. Right. But there isn't that in social media. And then on the other side, you have Rach Bing by the influencers who know that in order to increase their engagement and thereby make more money, they will do that by creating content that's going to get you angry. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Now, where does that all fit in in terms of climate? Where I think about this is in the idea of herma crises as it relates to Gen Z. This is a generation that has never lived without this idea of a crisis. They have never lived without September 11th being somewhere in the back of their consciousness one way or another. Right. And they saw their parents go through the downturn of 2008, and then climate change, and then school shootings and school shooting drills.

Dr. Mara Einstein (28:18):

And then the pandemic happened, and then Trump came back into office. So it's been one thing after another, after another. And so all of this builds up anxiety. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And as much as they've lived under this time of a perma crisis, they have also found ways, I think, in a way that other generations have not when they're one of the most witty generations I've ever seen. I mean, truly, you know, and some of this may be from spending a lot of time on social media. You, you just get used to, you know, coming up with quips really quickly. But they're also the generation that started thrifting, you know, using things like thread op and finding ways to recycle, really recycle the clothing that they use. There was an article about millennials academic article called Compassion Without Action. Hmm. Surveys after survey after survey was done about whether or not they cared about the environment. If they were asked about it, they would say, yes, I care about it. Yet at the same time, they would be the first ones online when the new iPhone came out, the flesh was willing, but the soul was weak or whatever that, whatever <laugh>.

Dr. Mara Einstein (29:25):

Yeah, yeah. You know, so they wanna do, right. But they weren't actually doing that. And I think what's happening with Gen Z, and this may actually have to do with the fact that they're having a harder time finding jobs, they're finding ways to be more thrifty. And at the same time that's working for the environment as well.

Katelan Cunningham (29:43):

In many ways, as you've mentioned, we've been forced to sort of bring advertising into our homes first with just radios, newspapers, TVs, all those kinds of things. And of course now with our phones that we're on much more than we were, you know, experiencing with the other media, does the amount that we get advertised to from a company, the number of posts that we see from a brand, does that change our ability to discern truth from lies? Especially when it comes to something like greenwashing?

Dr. Mara Einstein (30:08):

That's a great question. Well, let me put it to you this way. When we saw advertising on television, for example, if you were home in the middle of the day and there was an ad for depressive medication, they were sending that ad to you because there was an overall understanding. Women are at home, they might be feeling depressed, but it wasn't being sent to you. It was being sent to what was assumed to be a group of people who might be interested in that ad, and one or two of them would take advantage of it. That's very different than what's happening now. The ads you are being fed are not the same ads that're being sent to your friend or your family member. Everybody's seeing different advertising. The other thing is that it used to be effective frequency was three times. And what effective frequency is, is the number of times that you need to see a message before the message is integrated enough for you to then go out and buy the product.

Dr. Mara Einstein (31:06):

Now, effective frequency is understood to be somewhere between seven and 13 times. Wow. So you need to see the message over and over and over and over again before you then engage with the product. The other part of this, in advertising, we talk about the marketing funnel and the top of the funnel is where you create awareness for a product. You know, so people know that the product exists. Then once they know it exists, then it becomes part of the consideration set. Why will I go out and buy this product? And that's where the messages get to be more and more refined. The next step is conversion, when you actually go out and buy the product. And the last step in the process is loyalty, or what today we call marketing evangelists, that you will then tell all your friends. And what happens in that situation is that when you become the marketing evangelist, people will believe you selling the message more than the company.

Katelan Cunningham (32:00):

Ah.

Dr. Mara Einstein (32:00):

Because it's not Coca-Cola telling you to go drink a bottle of Coke. It's me telling my friend or my family member to go drink a bottle of Coke. And you may or may not know that you are actually sending an ad when you do that. The other part of what's happened with the marketing funnel is that in traditional media, what would happen is that you would see a commercial, you'd be sitting at at home, you'd be thinking, oh, maybe I wanna go buy that TV set, or whatever it is. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then you would have to get in your car, you'd go to the mall, you'd look at the TV set, and then you might say, I don't know, 700 bucks is kind of more than I wanna spend right now. And then you wouldn't do it. But that funnel has been collapsed in the online space.

Dr. Mara Einstein (32:44):

Hmm. And this is why people say, you know, TikTok made me buy it. It's not necessarily that TikTok made you buy it. TikTok was the seventh or eighth or ninth time that you might have heard about this product. And then you're like, oh, okay. Yeah, that's really cool. And then you can push a button and then you buy it. Yeah. And so where that comes in in terms of, again, anxiety, but also the idea of thinking fast and slow. We are being taught in this space to not think with our rational mind, but to think with our emotion. And when we do that, we're more likely to push the button and buy the product.

Katelan Cunningham (33:17):

So it seems to me that the more privy we are to just like how the psychology of advertising works, the less likely we are to buy anything <laugh>, which is good. And also wrapped into that greenwashing as well.

Dr. Mara Einstein (33:31):

Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, that's really my North star for doing what I do. Because you know, I would love people to buy my books. I would love people to listen to my podcast. I don't know that anybody, everybody's gonna do that. But that's why I'm on TikTok and Threads and all of these other places because I want to help people to understand how the marketing works. And it's really interesting because it's the frog in the boiling pot kind of idea is like if you're surrounded by the water, you think you understand where you are and what's happening. And everybody's been exposed to marketing, so they think they know how marketing works. But it's always fascinating to me. And when I actually break it down for people and they go, I didn't know that. Right? Yeah. And so the tools and tactics that marketers use to get us to buy, the more you are aware of them, the more you are able to say, oh, wait a minute. I know that that's what they're doing. Let me take a breath. Let me stop. Let me think about, you know, whether or not this is something I need and whether or not it's gonna end up in a landfill two weeks from now.

Katelan Cunningham (34:31):

That actually brings me to one more thing, especially since it's the giving season. I think all of us have experienced either at checkout online or at checkout in a store where a company will ask you to like donate to another cause. And you and I were talking about this a little bit before we started recording. What's your, what's your take on this?

Dr. Mara Einstein (34:47):

Don't do it. <laugh>, <laugh>, a couple of reasons not to do it. One, you are letting somebody else decide for you where you wanna put your money in terms of donations. The best way for you to donate to an organization is for you to find things that you care about and then give them a monthly donation. You know, even if it's $5 or $10, it helps them to know how much money they have coming in when multiple people do that. The other part of it is, is if you donate through a store, the store takes the tax write off instead of you. It has a guilt thing to it.

Katelan Cunningham (35:27):

Totally, totally.

Dr. Mara Einstein (35:28):

Because you're looking, yeah, you're looking at the cashier and they're like, do you want to help poor children who need to be fed? And then you say No. And of course you feel like Scrooge, you're not doing anything bad. You are just deciding how you want to spend your charitable dollars.

Katelan Cunningham (35:44):

Well, thank you so much for helping us navigate this very complicated sphere of marketing and greenwashing. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Mara Einstein (35:51):

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Katelan Cunningham (36:00):

Even after hearing all this, I wouldn't blame you if you're wondering, does it really matter if I do something about greenwashing, do Chevron or Chase or Coca-Cola or she, and do they really notice if I stop shopping there? Well, no. But these big companies absolutely notice when thousands of us stop shopping there. A fight against Greenwashing is a fight for transparency, and it's a battle that's fought at the cash register when we refuse to buy and court. When brands are held responsible for misleading claims and in the court of public opinion when brands are called out for bad actions. Another thing you can do to help prevent greenwashing is support or get involved with organizations that are fighting back against these kinds of deceitful claims every day. A few that come to mind are the NRDC. They sued the first Trump administration 163 times. Many of those lawsuits demand environmental transparency.

Katelan Cunningham (36:58):

The Sierra Club recently sued the Department of Energy here in the US for avoiding transparency. And the Surf Fighter Foundation works at the national and local levels to do things like Sue Exxon for hiding the truth about plastic recycling. They have chapters around every coast in the United States. I hope after all this, you at least feel a little better about your ability to detect greenwashing. If you have a friend who would like to get better at sniffing out greenwashing, send them this episode. And remember, the Commons app can come in handy for this too. When you're in a store or shopping online and you're wondering, is this brand sustainable? Just search it in the app and see how our experts rated it and why. You can find the Common app in the app store the Play Store, or just click the link in the show notes. As for our greenwash detecting community on today's episode, you heard from [credits]

Katelan Cunningham (38:04):

I have a confession for you guys. These end credits always get me a little choked up hearing from all of you all over the world never gets old. That's why we started Community Classifieds. At the end of this episode, in just a minute, you're gonna hear directly from our listeners who are so excited to tell you about the organizations in efforts that they're involved in, and let you know how you can help. Let's get out there and meet each other people. But first, I have to tell you that this has been yet another episode that wouldn't exist without the impeccable editing and engineering of Evan Goodchild. It was written and produced by me, Kaitlyn Cunningham. We'll see you next week. When we answer the question, can we recycle our way out of the plastic crisis? See you then.

Grace Hebert  (38:48):

My name is Grace and I'm involved with trees Atlanta in Atlanta, Georgia. Trees Atlanta protects and improves Atlanta's urban forest by planting, conserving, and educating. Founded in 1985, trees Atlanta works to mitigate Atlanta's tree loss, protect its forest, and increase its tree canopy. Empowered by a community of volunteers, trees Atlanta serves the metro Atlanta area and has grown to become one of Atlanta's most widely known non-profit organizations. Organizations like Trees Atlanta are pivotal for fighting climate change as they help make space for native plants and animals to thrive. By keeping forests healthy, you'll learn a lot and help you feel connected to your local ecosystem. Trees Atlanta is always looking for donations, leaders and volunteers to help with invasive plant removal, tree planting, teaching, and more.

Peter Hayes (39:31):

Hello, my name is Peter. I'm the creator of Start Green in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Start Green is an organization that helps small businesses integrate climate positive nature informed practices into their work, and provides practical tactical steps for starting a business. The goal is to help educate startups and new businesses on how to integrate climate positive solutions into their business from the very beginning. We offer a free tool to do that and invite anyone in the community to participate.

Julia Barry (40:04):

My name is Julia Barry, and I'm the owner and artist behind Uproot Design Studio in Brooklyn, New York. Our goal is to help everyday people find ways to integrate sustainable habits into their lives, making it fun, easy, and rewarding. So we provide sustainable products, courses, and community support for Joyful Green living@sustainablesuperherosociety.com, we are trying to build up our network's online, community, and educational and inspirational content, and would love to connect with you.

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